4e: Rituals

[Wil_Upchurch]

Would rituals be cooler if you could store the magic of a ritual in something and then use the ritual later on. For instance, if you knew you needed a Knock ritual at a specific door in a wizard's tower, you could perform the ritual in the morning, store the Knock in a key, and then when you got to the door, use the key on the door, expending the Knock, and gaining the effects of the ritual.

I haven't read them closely, so maybe this is possible, but it doesn't seem so. It also seems that interrupting an adventure to do a ritual is less interesting than preparing a ritual beforehand and then praying it works when you need it.

[Enkhidu]

Originally Posted by Wil_Upchurch

Would rituals be cooler if you could store the magic of a ritual in something and then use the ritual later on. For instance, if you knew you needed a Knock ritual at a specific door in a wizard's tower, you could perform the ritual in the morning, store the Knock in a key, and then when you got to the door, use the key on the door, expending the Knock, and gaining the effects of the ritual.

I haven't read them closely, so maybe this is possible, but it doesn't seem so. It also seems that interrupting an adventure to do a ritual is less interesting than preparing a ritual beforehand and then praying it works when you need it.

When we did this sort of thing with 3e, we just called it scribing scrolls.

I don't see why it would be a problem, as long as there was some sort of cost to do so. Then again I've always preferred "gadget" magic users.

[Freedom Canadian]

I think it's a pretty neat idea.

[Agamon]

Wait, can't you put a ritual on a scroll already?

[Wil_Upchurch]

I would probably limit it to one stored Ritual per "caster," and force them to have some related object (like the key to Knock) to hold the Ritual in. It might only last a number of days equal to Int modifier, after which it loses its power and you're out all the component costs.

Imbuing ritual power in this way seems quite flavorful and emulates many instances in fantasy fiction.

Scribing a ritual scroll isnt' really the same thing, since it still takes half the ritual time to perform it.

[Freedom Canadian]

You could also limit the ritual to being used in a pre-determined circumstance. For instance, the Knock stored ritual could be limited to only opening that one door you knew you were going to need to open.

It rewards information gathering, which is always a good thing IMO.

[madasshurt]

Originally Posted by Wil_Upchurch

Imbuing ritual power in this way seems quite flavorful and emulates many instances in fantasy fiction.

Yup, I dig this. Harry Potter and Harry Dresden certainly stand out in my mind for this kind of utility magic.

[Wil_Upchurch]

Originally Posted by Freedom Canadian

You could also limit the ritual to being used in a pre-determined circumstance. For instance, the Knock stored ritual could be limited to only opening that one door you knew you were going to need to open.

It rewards information gathering, which is always a good thing IMO.

Great idea!

[Klaus]

Originally Posted by Wil_Upchurch

Would rituals be cooler if you could store the magic of a ritual in something and then use the ritual later on. For instance, if you knew you needed a Knock ritual at a specific door in a wizard's tower, you could perform the ritual in the morning, store the Knock in a key, and then when you got to the door, use the key on the door, expending the Knock, and gaining the effects of the ritual.

I haven't read them closely, so maybe this is possible, but it doesn't seem so. It also seems that interrupting an adventure to do a ritual is less interesting than preparing a ritual beforehand and then praying it works when you need it.

That is a neat option to have.

What about this: it works just like a ritual scroll, but you can spend an action point to do it in x rounds (maybe 1?). That way you limit it to those "DO IT NOW!" moments that Jack Bauer just loves.

[Wil_Upchurch]

Originally Posted by Klaus

That is a neat option to have.

What about this: it works just like a ritual scroll, but you can spend an action point to do it in x rounds (maybe 1?). That way you limit it to those "DO IT NOW!" moments that Jack Bauer just loves.

I think it might make more sense to have to spend a heroic surge on it rather than an action point.

But I try not to think about either of those.

[Klaus]

Originally Posted by Wil_Upchurch

I think it might make more sense to have to spend a heroic surge on it rather than an action point.

But I try not to think about either of those.

How about this: As long as the item is unspent, you have one fewer Heroic Surge. You are, in fact, storing some of your vitality into the maintenance of the magic.

[Wil_Upchurch]

Originally Posted by Klaus

How about this: As long as the item is unspent, you have one fewer Heroic Surge. You are, in fact, storing some of your vitality into the maintenance of the magic.

That works better with the idea that you can keep it active over a number of days.

[Klaus]

Originally Posted by Wil_Upchurch

That works better with the idea that you can keep it active over a number of days.

Yeah. And then you don't even have to impose any other limit to the length of time or number of ritual items you possess. This will be limited by a) how many surges you have and b) if you need the surges or not.

[Wil_Upchurch]

Originally Posted by Klaus

Yeah. And then you don't even have to impose any other limit to the length of time or number of ritual items you possess. This will be limited by a) how many surges you have and b) if you need the surges or not.

True, but I still think I like the "one at a time" limitation, at least until I see how it plays out. I can see people always carrying around three or four of these...although, Wizards don't get too many heroic surges to begin with. Hmm. I suppose if you said it subtracted a heroic surge from your overall total and cost a heroic surge to use it then it would self-limit.

That would also let the DM and/or player set up a situation where several fast rituals were needed, so the wizard was really taking a chance by transporting them through a dangerous dungeon until they were needed. Ah, yes, that is a sweet idea.

[Goblin Girl]

Originally Posted by Klaus

How about this: As long as the item is unspent, you have one fewer Heroic Surge. You are, in fact, storing some of your vitality into the maintenance of the magic.

Originally Posted by Wil_Upchurch

That works better with the idea that you can keep it active over a number of days.

I think this is going somewhere really interesting. It's one of those things that I want to find a way to incorporate into my 3.x game.

[Klaus]

Originally Posted by Wil_Upchurch

True, but I still think I like the "one at a time" limitation, at least until I see how it plays out. I can see people always carrying around three or four of these...although, Wizards don't get too many heroic surges to begin with. Hmm. I suppose if you said it subtracted a heroic surge from your overall total and cost a heroic surge to use it then it would self-limit.

That would also let the DM and/or player set up a situation where several fast rituals were needed, so the wizard was really taking a chance by transporting them through a dangerous dungeon until they were needed. Ah, yes, that is a sweet idea.

That is something. But remember that Clerics can also use Rituals, and they get boatloads of Healing Surges. In fact, any character trained in Arcana or Religion can take the Ritual Magic feat, even Fighters and Warlords (granted, the only way for these to get the skill is to take a Multiclass feat).

[Hound of Tindalos]

Originally Posted by Klaus

That is something. But remember that Clerics can also use Rituals, and they get boatloads of Healing Surges. In fact, any character trained in Arcana or Religion can take the Ritual Magic feat, even Fighters and Warlords (granted, the only way for these to get the skill is to take a Multiclass feat).

Nope. See Skill Training on page 201.

"You gain training in one skill. The skill need not be on your class skill list."

[Klaus]

Originally Posted by Hound of Tindalos

Nope. See Skill Training on page 201.

"You gain training in one skill. The skill need not be on your class skill list."

Got it, thanks.

Still, the point stands: you have to take two of three feats to be able to use Rituals.

[Hound of Tindalos]

Originally Posted by Klaus

Got it, thanks.

Still, the point stands: you have to take two of three feats to be able to use Rituals.

Thats because there meant for the magic using classes. They need something since they get hosed in the power department as it is. And as it is there are things that are rituals that shouldn't be, knock being one of them. But the basic idea of the rituals I really like.

[Klaus]

Originally Posted by Hound of Tindalos

Thats because there meant for the magic using classes. They need something since they get hosed in the power department as it is. And as it is there are things that are rituals that shouldn't be, knock being one of them. But the basic idea of the rituals I really like.

I know. I was just reminding Wil that, even if you limit Ritual Items using Healing Surges (because wizards don't get many), other classes can have access to Rituals easily enough (a human can get them at 1st level).

[Wil_Upchurch]

Originally Posted by Klaus

I know. I was just reminding Wil that, even if you limit Ritual Items using Healing Surges (because wizards don't get many), other classes can have access to Rituals easily enough (a human can get them at 1st level).

Well, if your fighter wants to blow feats on that, then he's probably also dressing up in women's underwear and enduring the snickers whenever he enters a tavern or his guildhouse.

*cue guitar*

On a long and lonesome trade road, east of Baldur's Gate,
You can listen to the horses clatter as you make your way,
You can think about your woman, or the girl you knew the night before...

But your thoughts will soon be wandering, the way they always do.
When your riding sixteen hours and there's nothing much to do
And you dont feel much like riding, you just wish the trip was through.

Say, here I am, on the road again. there I am, down in the caves,
Here I go, buffing stats again,
There I go, turn the page.

Well you walk into a tavern, strung out from the road,
You can feel the eyes upon you as your shaking off the cold
You pretend it doesnt bother you, but you just want to explode.

Most times you cant hear em talk, other times you can.
Oh the same old cliche, is that a fighter or a bard
You always seem outnumbered, you dont dare make a stand.

Here I am, on the road again. there I am, down in the caves,
Here I go, buffing stats again,
There I go, turn the page.

Out there in the dungeon you're a million miles away,
Every ounce of energy, you try and hack away,
As the sweat pours out your body while you're entering the fray.

Later in the evening as you blow your healing surge,
While the wizard gets his sleep, frickin' thaumaturge,
You eat the day's last rations, remembering what she said.

Here I am, on the road again. there I am, down in the caves,
Here I go, buffing stats again,
There I go, turn the page.
Here I am, on the road again. there I am, down in the caves,
Here I go, buffing stats again,
There I go, turn the page.

[Dacke]

It's a neat idea, though I'd probably make the cost of a "stored" ritual two or three times that of one carried out on the spot for the sake of balance.

[Wil_Upchurch]

Originally Posted by Dacke

It's a neat idea, though I'd probably make the cost of a "stored" ritual two or three times that of one carried out on the spot for the sake of balance.

Hm. What exactly is the added gp cost offsetting, and how is it doing so? Like I said, I haven't looked at it closely, so perhaps there's something imbalancing about storing a ritual that I can't see. Plus, we've got the two heroic surges it takes to use a stored ritual...I always favor immediate balancing mechanics versus those that affect the character's career.

[Dacke]

Well, the whole point of rituals is that they take time, and shouldn't be used in combat. That's a big part of why they are a separate category from combat powers. So for that reason, I'd be inclined to be very conservative toward anything that would make them applicable in combat.

Then again, it's possible that using surges would help with that balance, and not require any more.

On second thought, from a more simulationist perspective: an insta-use ritual item ought to cost at least as much as a ritual scroll (which enables anyone who has it to perform the ritual in half the time, but is used up in the process). Creating a ritual scroll costs the same as creating a ritual book, which is listed on each ritual as its market price. There doesn't seem to be any straightforward conversion between ritual cost and market price, as the market price is generally between 2 and 6 times the cost of performing the ritual (with a few outliers).

[jdrakeh]

Don't magic item abilities and scrolls pretty much fill the niche (i.e., instantaneous magical effects) that you're attempting to fill by de-ritualizing ritual magic?

[Wil_Upchurch]

Originally Posted by jdrakeh

Don't magic item abilities and scrolls pretty much fill the niche (i.e., instantaneous magical effects) that you're attempting to fill by de-ritualizing ritual magic?

Maybe! But I don't see how.

Could you give some examples as to what you're thinking?

Also, what do you mean by de-ritualizing? My system keeps the rituals intact.

[Tarion'sCousin]

Originally Posted by madwabbit

Yup, I dig this. Harry Potter and Harry Dresden certainly stand out in my mind for this kind of utility magic.

Should we call it "Harry Magic"?

[Holy Bovine]

Originally Posted by Wil_Upchurch

I would probably limit it to one stored Ritual per "caster," and force them to have some related object (like the key to Knock) to hold the Ritual in. It might only last a number of days equal to Int modifier, after which it loses its power and you're out all the component costs.

Imbuing ritual power in this way seems quite flavorful and emulates many instances in fantasy fiction.

Scribing a ritual scroll isnt' really the same thing, since it still takes half the ritual time to perform it.

Very cool idea. I think i will yoink it for my as yet to be determined 4e game. I'd give the caster a little more leeway in the number they could prepare. Say their INT bonus? Combined with the limited time frame you propose that would give them some wiggle room to prepare extras.

[nail bunny]

Originally Posted by Tarion'sCousin

Should we call it "Harry Magic"?

Since this is Will's idea it should be called "Hairy Magic".

[madasshurt]

Here's an idea or two I saw over on Rob Donoghue's blog. Rob is with Evil Hat, and is one of the co-creators of Spirit of the Century. He's been posting a steady stream of reactions to and thoughts about 4e, mostly positive and supportive, and lately he's been thinking of possible places to fiddle with the system a bit:

Originally Posted by Rob Donoghue

The idea [of ritual magic] is in some ways cooler than the implementation.

If you want to make rituals easier, make the cost the minimum value of your kit, and then make the actual cost 10% of that. Thus, if a ritual costs 200gp, you must have a collection of stuff worth 200gp, but it only costs you 20.

Another approach is to make certain items worth a fixed amount towards the cost of rituals without being expended (effectively reducing the cost). Thus the Staff of Zinthos, a Druidic Staff, reduces the cost of any Nature ritual by 100.

Best of all, if you find the rituals listed to be problematic, then just consider them the starting set, and that other, better ones are less commonly available. New rituals, whether they're new spells entirely or alterations to existing ones (that perhaps cost less, or have a bigger effect) are a fantastic new avenue for treasure.

I like his idea about the ritual kit, and of course, putting in new rituals or altered "standard" ones as "treasure" is an idea I'm sure has percolated up from many of us.