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Thread: If God exists....
May 16th, 2012, 03:50 PM #211
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May 16th, 2012, 04:07 PM #212
You're clinging to your judgements that you use to dismiss God, to dismiss the worship of God, and to feel justified in doing so. And, I'll freely admit, in the absence of knowledge they're damn good and persuasive arguments. They don't hold water in the face of knowledge to the contrary, though.
This is a narrow set of arguments. So much so that I find the actual topic a touch trite. Of course knowledge such prompt rational persons to follow. The premise isn't very enlightening. I'm more interested in the forceful statements from people that (nomially) accept the premise of the thread and then answer irrationally. It seems that most of the reasoning is ignoring the nomially accepted premises of the thread. Ideology seems to be rather inflexible.
May 16th, 2012, 04:08 PM #213
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May 16th, 2012, 04:14 PM #214
Not quite, though I admit it does look that way.You've constructed a limited set of options and assigned weightings to them to make them fit your rationale, not the other way round.
I took what I considered the most likely options (if you can come up with more please do) and then weighed them identically to save myself time. When I first conceived of "using stastics" to make my (humorous) argument in my mind they were a 50/50 split. When I started typing them in I realized "Follow God" had three possible outcomes to "Reject God" two outcomes.
Of course it would.Plug in only a 5% chance that God would change the rules in that precise manner, and your rationale should therefore change drastically, no?
Or maybe not. Honestly, I see the sun in the sky most days, I still don't believe it. I'm not saying it's some astounding miracle when I see it or my life is changed every time... what I'm saying is I don't buy the "scientific" explanation anymore than I do the religious one. And I do still have "Wow, that sun up there is so damn cool" moments (about random different things, it's not always the sun).
Thus I'm lead to the conclusion that even when with faced "absolute truth" I'm not likely to believe it.
There's a whole thread around here with a bunch of people doing exactly that. Oddly, most of them are on your side of the argument.
Which one is this? Point it out to me....
May 16th, 2012, 04:16 PM #215
Been turned into a pillar of salt?
Told that no matter how good you are you're going to hell unless you have faith?
Told that your newborn is going to hell if he dies before he can be baptised?
Fuck your "good" god.
Bullshit. If god lays out the rules of morality and then breaks them, god is immoral. Worse, he's knowingly immoral on a level humans could never approach since not only does he understand the rules, he fucking made them.How do he fail? Because He's 'said' different things at different times? Are you saying that absolute morality can't have conditional clauses, or is something that is fully understandable to humans, or, to put it in the context of God, is just His will at the moment? If God is the absolute source of morality, then He is moral. Period. Arguing otherwise is arguing against fact (again, in this context where we know God exists and is the source of morality).
Hilarious from the person who has yet to accept the premise of the thread, which encompasses more than you think. IF the bible is truth THEN god's misdeeds in the bible are truth. Therefore god is unworthy of even his own respect let alone our worship.This is a narrow set of arguments. So much so that I find the actual topic a touch trite. Of course knowledge such prompt rational persons to follow. The premise isn't very enlightening. I'm more interested in the forceful statements from people that (nomially) accept the premise of the thread and then answer irrationally. It seems that most of the reasoning is ignoring the nomially accepted premises of the thread. Ideology seems to be rather inflexible.
Save time and see it my way.
May 16th, 2012, 04:22 PM #216
I don't follow your argument.ab·so·lute /ˈębsəˌlut, ˌębsəˈlut/ Show Spelled[ab-suh-loot, ab-suh-loot] Show IPA
1. free from imperfection; complete; perfect: absolute liberty.
2. not mixed or adulterated; pure: absolute alcohol.
3. complete; outright: an absolute lie; an absolute denial.
4. free from restriction or limitation; not limited in any way: absolute command; absolute freedom.
5. unrestrained or unlimited by a constitution, counterbalancing group, etc., in the exercise of governmental power, especially when arbitrary or despotic: an absolute monarch.
6. viewed independently; not comparative or relative; ultimate; intrinsic: absolute knowledge.
7. positive; certain: absolute in opinion; absolute evidence.
8. Grammar .
a. relatively independent syntactically. The construction It being Sunday in It being Sunday, the family went to church is an absolute construction.
b. (of a usually transitive verb) used without an object, as the verb give in The charity asked him to give.
c. (of an adjective) having its noun understood, not expressed, as poor in The poor are always with us.
d. characterizing the phonological form of a word or phrase occurring by itself, not influenced by surrounding forms, as not in is not (as opposed to isn't ), or will in they will (as opposed to they'll ). Compare sandhi.
9. Physics .
a. independent of arbitrary standards or of particular properties of substances or systems: absolute humidity.
b. pertaining to a system of units, as the centimeter-gram-second system, based on some primary units, especially units of length, mass, and time.
c. pertaining to a measurement based on an absolute zero or unit: absolute temperature.
10. Education . noting or pertaining to the scale of a grading system based on an individual's performance considered as representing his or her knowledge of a given subject regardless of the performance of others in a group: The math department marks on an absolute scale. Compare curve ( def. 10 ) .
11. Climatology . noting or pertaining to the highest or lowest value of a meteorological quantity recorded during a given, usually long, period of time: absolute maximum temperature.
12. Mathematics . (of an inequality) indicating that the expression is true for all values of the variable, as x 2 + 1 > 0 for all real numbers x; unconditional. Compare conditional ( def. 6 ) .
13. Computers . machine-specific and requiring no translation ( opposed to symbolic): absolute coding; absolute address. COLLAPSE
14. something that is not dependent upon external conditions for existence or for its specific nature, size, etc. ( opposed to relative).
15. the absolute,
a. something that is free from any restriction or condition.
b. something that is independent of some or all relations.
c. something that is perfect or complete.
d. (in Hegelianism) the world process operating in accordance with the absolute idea.
May 16th, 2012, 04:31 PM #217
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May 16th, 2012, 04:37 PM #218
Your conjecture that moral absolutes must be rigid in time isn't a strong argument. The fact that you only have imperfect observation and limited scope of understanding would further question your assertion. The premise is that God exists, and he is the God of the Bible, and all of this is unquestionably true. In that context, God is the moral absolute, and any misunderstanding is a failure of your less perfect being, not Him.Moral absolutism is an ethical view that certain actions are absolutely right or wrong, regardless of other contexts such as their consequences or the intentions behind them.
May 16th, 2012, 05:52 PM #219
@Ovi: The introduction of the idea of a moral absolute is born from your personal interpretation of the premise of this thread and not part of the actual premise, so that part of the discussion is pretty much moot.
May 16th, 2012, 06:16 PM #220
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May 16th, 2012, 06:22 PM #221
Everybody remembers the ten commandments (and pretty much nobody follows them). What about the rest?
Last edited by Turjan; May 16th, 2012 at 06:31 PM.
May 16th, 2012, 06:37 PM #222
From what I recall the Bible is very clear about God being the sole arbitor of what is right and what is wrong.*
However that doesn't mean I need to agree with Him.
* Caveat: I don't remember if God ever claimed he was the sole arbitor, or if it were merely those speaking of God. But it is likely He'd make exactly that claim.
May 16th, 2012, 07:21 PM #223
If you really think about it, even the (or better most?) Christian churches still only follow those laws that have a moral component. They didn't have any qualms with exchanging the Sabbath for Sunday, either, as they valued the idea of having a day of rest and observance of god higher than the letter of the commandment. And all those countless laws that are not part of the commandments? Nobody cares.
Regarding your caveat, you probably find something for every claim you have in the bible.
May 17th, 2012, 02:09 AM #224
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(b) Hell no! I'd want to find away to arrest him and put him on trial for genocide, murder, torture, child abuse and other heinous crimes. Barring that, I'd want to find a way to get Seal Team Six to put a bullet in his eye.
If, however, the entirely a-Biblical God of nice, genorous decent mdoern moderate Christianity were to exit (a sort of God-as-Rowan-Williams'-public-face deity), then yes, I might well consdier following Him.
May 17th, 2012, 02:25 AM #225
Seriosuly though - If it turned out there was a God but the writters of the Bible had some seriously off ideas about how things went down, I'd be more than inclined to give Him a muligan and rethink His place in my life.