Thread: MASS EFFECT 3 PLAYTHROUGH WITH SPOILERS!

  1. #391
    Will bite your legs off nail bunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagpuss View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Jezter View Post
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    and Jade Empire ...
    Now ME is out of the way maybe we can see a Jade Empire 2. Man that game was cool.
    Jade Empire is the only game where I've had my initial opinion changed years later after reading someone else's critique of the game.


    Initially I thought it was crap. I mean I saw the "what a twist" coming from the first few minutes of the game and felt it was "confirmed" about 1/3 of the way through. Then everyone started raving about how awesome the "twist' was and how "no one saw it coming" etc...

    A few months ago Shamus Young basically laid the entire plot out in a critique/review and it reminded of how much I thought the writting was actually good (if not great). Game play was weak sure, and being as "genre savy" as I am on "Asian Marital Arts" stories I saw the twist coming... and yet his write up reminded of all things I liked when I played it through... and Jade Empire was good enough for me play it all the way through to the end first go, despite what I saw as it's flaws. Which is pretty rare.*



    So yeah... I'd like see another Martial Arts RPG set in the Jade Empire.



    * For instance it took two tries to get through Fallout 1 (F2 was finished in 1 go), I've never actually finished any Elder Scrolls game even though I love a few of them to pieces, it took 6 goes to get through Fallout 3 and I've never finished F:NV (even though NV is far superior to 3), it took 3 tried to finish Fallout Tactics... the only Warcraft game I finished in the first playthrough was 1, the others both took several tries before I had the stamina to go all the way. I did finish Starcraft and Broodwar in the first (and every subsequent) playthrough so, that's something different. I also managed to finish every Deus Ex and System Shock game in the first playthrough (and in subsequent playthroughs where applicable). I finish Diablo 1 and 2 in on every character (and the expansion for about half the characters).

    I do though finish almost every non-rpg turn-based strategic or tactical game I've ever played, but's a whole different kettle of fish.

    Oh, I finished every Thief game on the first go and failed to finish any S.T.A.L.K.E.R. games (they're too scary ) even though I do love S.T.A.L.K.E.R.
    (^ェ^)

 

  • #392
    on a pogo stick! JC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagpuss View Post
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    Now ME is out of the way maybe we can see a Jade Empire 2. Man that game was cool.
    Ooo! That reminds me I need to pick up the PC version of JE. I still have my original Xbox with my saves on it but I wasn't that far along in the game. Maybe 6-8 hours. I'd want to pick it up from the beginning anyway.

    But besides that there will likely be another full Mass Effect game before Jade Empire. If anything EA will push for the proven money maker sequel.

  • #393
    awesum sauce, side of kickass Dark Jezter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagpuss View Post
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    Now ME is out of the way maybe we can see a Jade Empire 2. Man that game was cool.
    Nah, the next Bioware game is gonna be Dragon Age III or some kind of Dragon Age spin-off title. Bioware announced a couple of weeks ago that they have ceased production on all further DA2 DLC so that the team can focus entirely on "the next phase of Dragon Age's future."

    I agree that a Jade Empire sequel would be cool, but I consider it unlikely because JE is viewed by many as the "red-headed stepchild" of the Bioware family. It's greatly overshadowed by Bioware's more successful franchises like BG, KOTOR, DA, and ME.
    "Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing."

    -Robert E. Howard, The Tower of the Elephant

  • #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by nail bunny View Post
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    You said you were a thinker, not me. When challenged, out comes fail bunny on the thinking for himself front.

    Quote Originally Posted by nail bunny View Post
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    It's plenty of thought. All the thought and consideration that comes from around 100+ hours of playing through 1-3, of talking about the game over the years, of thinking about it.
    None of which has anything to do with putting actual thought to the ending of ME3 and the odd tidbits and clues dropped along the way coupled with the very obvious ones.

    Quote Originally Posted by nail bunny View Post
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    Then faced with interpreting the ending: you have one at face value and one that requires the end to be an asspull/mind-screw.
    Ah, so they are one in the same then. Got it. Pity there is no room for middle-ground or some gray. To be interpreted or at least be counted as a possibility, of course.

    Quote Originally Posted by nail bunny View Post
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    Which one is more likely following what Bioware has shown of themselves to date? The face value one.
    To your own words, those endings have been good the majority of the time. So when an ending is so blatantly full of holes and inconsistencies more thought deserves to be paid. Even if just to give the benefit of the doubt for a series that has been of such high quality so far.

    Quote Originally Posted by nail bunny View Post
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    Now, we'll see what happens when the "new ending" DLC is released and you slap down your 15$ for it...
    I'll likely be buying any story DLC they put out at some point. If anything just to support the company as I've stated many times in the past. And I'm the one very pleased with what we got, why would I want a new ending? But considering there likely won't be such DLC dedicated only to the ending there is nothing for you to worry your pretty little head over and get pissy about.

    Also, Bioware has already strongly hinted that we'll be able to use our game saves in the future. And they've straight-up said there is more Mass Effect to come. The least of which will be ME3 DLC if not more full games. I absolutely believe there will be more games after this latest batch of DLC. I've been saying that longer than the game has been out.

    Quote Originally Posted by nail bunny View Post
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    You also thought Falling Skies was intelligently written.
    No, I said the exact opposite. I said it was entertaining fluff and nothing more. Don't believe me? Prove me wrong. I'll even link the thread for ya.

    That flushing noise is your credibility.

    Quote Originally Posted by nail bunny View Post
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    What? The kid that has no chance to interact with anyone else and is in only 3 scenes and was alone for one of them? That kid?
    Those blinders must be painful. Why didn't anyone help the kid on to the shuttle with a reaper quickly approaching? Plenty of people are around and lots of soldiers to specifically get civies outta there. Pretty suspicious stuff right there along with...

    Please explain how the kid escaped the reaper beam/blast at the beginning near the apartments. Why didn't Anderson notice Shepard was talking to someone in the air vent? And how, right before that, did the kid waltz through a (red) locked door? Sure, that could have been a real kid but there is no way someone survives that blast with all the wreckage inside.

    Want more than just the kid? Okay, here ya go: How the hell is Anderson in near-perfect condition (I think I might have seen a slight bruise on his cheek but the rest of him is absolutely fine) on the Citadel when first meeting up after Harbinger's beam? He was in the charge and should at least show some signs of battle and carnage. Why are there keepers in the corridor leading to Anderson doing something on non-existent noises. Why are the not-there consoles making console sounds?

    There are a plenty more obvious ones, too. See below.

    Quote Originally Posted by nail bunny View Post
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    It's not just a stretch to say the kid is part of the indoctrination, it's one of the inconsistencies.
    Howzat?

    Quote Originally Posted by nail bunny View Post
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    There are two interpretations for the dream sequences. The more liekly one: it's a stab at Shepard's slowly crumbling morale and a face to the millions Shepard has failed to save. The other requires for Shepard to have been indoctrinated and showing no signs of indoctrination from the begining of ME3.
    Then there is the third option that reflects the internal struggle against ongoing and slow indoctrination attempts. Read or listen to the codex entry on indoctrination. There is also the explanation from the real Rachni Queen about what it's like: Oily and shadowy figures, ghostly hallucinations, voices coming from nowhere, etc.

    The point of the kid and all his weirdness could reflect the process and the fight have started from the moment the game starts. Why else would would the kid be the very first thing we see at the start of the game? In other media, that type of thing means something very specific to the narrative. Could be something obvious but it could also be something much deeper.

    Quote Originally Posted by nail bunny View Post
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    What "obvious" ploys at misdirection? The Illusive man? Anderson getting onboard first when Harbinger was clearly aiming at Shepard? Shepard somehow surviving an anti-ship weapon?
    There are loads. Here's some for starters: Everything the ghost-kid says is obvious bullshit mixed with lies. Nothing he says meshes with anything we've encountered so far in the game not to mention his spew about organics and organics comes out of nowhere. Then there are the lines about synthetics and organics always wanting to destroy each other and the need for the Reapers. We've just seen first hand the Geth offering to help rebuild the Quarian homeworld and link to their suits to increase adaptability to environments. And before that we learn that a few select Quarians doomed themselves with stupid actions against their creations and it wasn't the entire race that wanted the Geth wiped out. Not to mention Legion and Shepard's relationship. This proves overall willingness to live together in relative peace. It's all double-talk and contradictory at the same time which is completely out of place.

    Ghost-kid also flat lies about the destroy option killing Shepard. Shepard wakes up at the very end if destroy is picked (and if EMS is high enough). This isn't obvious and it took a second playthrough to notice but in the other two, Shepard's eyes do a weird glowy thing (very similar to TIM's) and her skin melts off to show what appears to be a husk-like coating. Could be interpreted as the final steps of indoctrination Shepard has now given in and no longer is willing to destroy the Reapers.

    Another obvious one is the Citadel choice mechanisms: Why are the machines color coded? The Citadel is frickin' ancient. Makes zero sense.

    Also ridiculous the point where it needs to be explored deeper is Joker's retreat and squad members showing up on the Normandy that was no where close to where the squad was: at the beam to the Citadel. The squad getting on is ridiculous but leaving without Shepard is just as stupid and nonsensical. So much so that it's possible it never happened and is only a manifestation in Shepard's mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by nail bunny View Post
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    I can't think of anyone (critic or joe on the street) whom thought the "ambiguity" was a problem.
    Well then! It must be fact.

    Yup, there has been no controversy over Blade Runner and its multiple releases.

  • #395
    I don't FEEL wealthy. Ulrik's Avatar
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    Another big problem with Indoctrination is that it makes no difference. Whatever you pick, Shepard defeats the Reapers, the galaxy rebuilds and he becomes famous as the Shepherd. Shouldn't such a great person succumbing to indoctrination have at least some consequences? Or are you arguing that that's part of the dream sequence too?

  • #396
    jowly Tabloid Believer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JC View Post
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    Perhaps I should have been more specific. Most stories that span more than one book/game/TV shows have endings that are okay at best. Usually they are poor and only every so often they are spectacular. It's certainly not the norm. Why? Endings are frickin' hard to do right with so many balls in the air.
    I agree. I suppose that what is frustrating for me and a lot of other people is that they had a good ending in sight. They had what was looking like a great ending to a great series and then messed it up in the 11th and a half hour.

    If the ending sequence as a whole was just kind of blah (as it was for me in Dragon Age: II) then, I could at least say, "Well, that's too bad. The ending was kind of blah."

    But the ending was absolutely awesome until the very, very end. It's harder to see something that could have been good go bad, as opposed to just seeing something that's bad upfront. If you see that it's bad upfront, then you turn off your brain and say, "Well, I'll just enjoy the gameplay at this point. Or, well, you know. It wasn't good, but I can enjoy this part of it."

    Quote Originally Posted by nail bunny
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    I know JC ignored my earlier post about 50% of rpg/story games endings are good, so I'll reiterate:

    Atleast 50% of the rpgs and story games I've played had pretty good endings. The majority of Bioware games had very good endings.
    Yep. I agree with this.
    Last edited by Tabloid Believer; April 2nd, 2012 at 02:39 PM.
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  • #397
    let them eat arugula! Vigilance's Avatar
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    So, I am on my 3rd playthrough.

    I always play ME games multiple times, purposely making some different choices to see how things play out differently.

    ME 3 doesn't disappoint in that regard. The subtle differences in the story are GREAT. My only real gripe about the game, except for those crappy last 20 minutes or so, would be Jack doesn't really have a romance subplot.

    On the other hand, in this game I romanced Tali in ME, after romancing Ashley in ME 1, and the catfighting is hilarious.

  • #398
    I want watermelon! Bagpuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dark Jezter View Post
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    I agree that a Jade Empire sequel would be cool, but I consider it unlikely because JE is viewed by many as the "red-headed stepchild" of the Bioware family.
    Don't make me set CopperCap on you with your racial slurs.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Oliver View Post
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    Damn you and your perfectly valid criticism!

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    Fascinating COMMUNITY SUPPORTER Mustrum_Ridcully's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JC View Post
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    *snip*
    The problem remains - Why end the game before the actual conclusion of game's suposed main objective is achieved?
    Our goal was to destroy the Reapers in Mass Effect 3. Bring this arc to conclusion. But it doesn't - it instead ends on an indoctrination dream sequence?
    I mean, i am not opposed to the Indoctrination plot, but it has the problem that the game isn't over where it should be over.

    And if we ignore the Indoctrination theory, the problem remains all the other questions that are unanswered - how did the Citadel Security war assets even contribute to the war? What's that long-range Reaper scanning thing for? How does any of what the star child says makes even sense in the context of what we've seen so far, and why doesn't Shepard react to that?

    There are too many holes in the story for it to be a good ending.
    You can have open endings by not answering questions, but you should ensure that the simplest answer to any question is not "The writers screwed this up".

    That is not like the Blade Runner ending - the alternative, simpler interpretation is not "the writers screwed up" - It's just the protagonist is a human and that's all there is to it.

  • #400
    let them eat arugula! Vigilance's Avatar
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    Also, wasn't the ambiguous Blade Runner ending the one test audiences rejected as confusing?

    Ridley Scott liked it best, so it's been in most of the DVD releases, but I think the theatrical release had a much more definitive, happy ending.

    And hey- a work of art that changed its ending post release! Huh, how unheard of.

  • #401
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ulrik View Post
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    Or are you arguing that that's part of the dream sequence too?
    Not really arguing anything. More saying it's possible with proof to back it up upon further inspection of the parts that made no obvious sense. That I like quite a bit of it as my interpretation of how things wrapped up is a different story.

    Everything below (and really anything I've posted about the endings so far) should have a "could be interpreted as" somewhere in there. If there is something in the game that disproves any of the interpretations some rethinking is likely required. If it's something really big, especially something that I really like or encompasses much of what happened that could be a problem. I'd have to look at the whole thing again from a different view point.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ulrik View Post
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    Another big problem with Indoctrination is that it makes no difference. Whatever you pick, Shepard defeats the Reapers, the galaxy rebuilds and he becomes famous as the Shepherd. Shouldn't such a great person succumbing to indoctrination have at least some consequences?
    The ending that I interpreted for my Shepard was the one where she fights off indoctrination, completes the mission, ends the Reapers for good and lives to tell the tale. Someone else's interpretation could be vastly different. That person could assume a more bleak ending where Shepard lives but still fails in the end and the Reapers are bound to return.

    Consequences for taking either the control or synthesis endings along with an appropriately high EMS? Those weren't for my Shepard.

    But to answer directly: One interpretation could be that once Shepard is fully indoctrinated by not destroying the Reapers, they have won or will eventually win. The continued visions are Shepard thinking all is well with friends and loved ones as they escape while the sacrifice consumes her. Even the player doesn't realize at this point they've been duped into not being willing to destroy the Reapers and instead take the same option as either Saren or TIM. It could be interpreted that the player has also been indoctrinated. You can see in both those endings that the kid (Harbinger?) sticks around to watch the show as Shepard is consumed. It's almost sinister in comparison. In the destroy ending he disappears almost instantly. Not to mention Shepard's limp disappears right away. Adrenaline? Maybe. Could also be a mental manifestation of Shepard's burden being lifted as the weight of struggle is over.

    The other scenes are BS, just like they were in the destroy ending. It's all in Shepard's mind as wishful thinking. And just like Saren and TIM, Shepard believed she was doing things for the greater good until it was too late. Without Shepard fully on their side it's likely that she lead them to destruction. Or possibly someone (her lover? Anderson?) put a bullet in her head after discovering she was indoctrinated. Or Maybe the Reapers were defeated anyway due to Shepard's previous actions. But perhaps not for good.

    As to the endings not making any difference ... that's not a problem with the major part of the Indoctrination Theory. That problem belongs to the perception of the player getting wrapped up in the similarities but ignoring the details. It can work with each of the 3 paths chosen just like each person's Shepard is different and unique to that player even if they picked the exact same choices the entire game. And no one said the IT is an cure-all "fix" to the ending to ME3. It's an interpretation that states clearly that there is a right way to finish things off and a way that leads to indoctrination.

  • #402
    on a pogo stick! JC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilance View Post
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    And hey- a work of art that changed its ending post release! Huh, how unheard of.
    No one was debating if it ever happened or not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabloid Believer View Post
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    I agree. I suppose that what is frustrating for me and a lot of other people is that they had a good ending in sight. They had what was looking like a great ending to a great series and then messed it up in the 11th and a half hour.
    Yes, I'm well aware (no matter how much nail bunny wants to paint a different picture) of the many, many gripes surrounding the ending.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tabloid Believer View Post
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    Yep. I agree with this.


    If you've trusted Bioware before and enjoyed their endings I suggest tossing them some benefit of the doubt, do some poking around and go from there. Try and set aside some of your own expectations for a bit while doing it, that can help. Think for a moment about if they were aiming higher this time with the added burden of being the first folks to ever take on a piece of interactive entertainment like this on top of knowing that no matter how it ended not everyone was going to be pleased.

    Then if you come back to it still being crap that's fine. My only real issue is anyone who (not that I'm saying you are doing this) just goes with the lazy take away of "crap writing" when so much more was put on the table.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustrum_Ridcully View Post
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    The problem remains - Why end the game before the actual conclusion of game's suposed main objective is achieved?
    Are you actually asking my opinion here or are you looking for something else? Because Bioware's reasoning is already out there on this and I believe I've been pretty open as to how I feel about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustrum_Ridcully View Post
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    Our goal was to destroy the Reapers in Mass Effect 3. Bring this arc to conclusion. But it doesn't - it instead ends on an indoctrination dream sequence?
    It really ends with the knowledge that Shepard came through and took care of the Reapers. In my game anyway. Some dude in the future was telling this other younger dude about it and everything in the last scene.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustrum_Ridcully View Post
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    I mean, i am not opposed to the Indoctrination plot, but it has the problem that the game isn't over where it should be over.
    If Bioware's goal was to leave room for interpretation and promote conversation like they say it was it ended exactly at the right spot with Shepard overcoming (or not overcoming) everything the Reapers threw at her.

    Obviously you and others don't agree. I get that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustrum_Ridcully View Post
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    And if we ignore the Indoctrination theory, the problem remains all the other questions that are unanswered - how did the Citadel Security war assets even contribute to the war?
    I'd be interested in hearing your answers this question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustrum_Ridcully View Post
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    How does any of what the star child says makes even sense in the context of what we've seen so far, and why doesn't Shepard react to that?
    It doesn't make any sense but I'd also like to hear your answer to this question. You already know mine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustrum_Ridcully View Post
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    What's that long-range Reaper scanning thing for?
    Huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mustrum_Ridcully View Post
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    You can have open endings by not answering questions, but you should ensure that the simplest answer to any question is not "The writers screwed this up".
    The simplest answer, eh? That wasn't the simplest answer from my point of view. It's a meta-answer based on expectations set outside of the context of the game in many cases.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilance View Post
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    So, I am on my 3rd playthrough.

    I always play ME games multiple times, purposely making some different choices to see how things play out differently.
    And you insist that Bioware owes you something else. Curious.

    It's like the chubby kid at the cookout who says the hotdogs sucked and that his uncle should have made them different. Then mom asks him why he ate so many of them and is now asking for another hotdog.

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