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April 2nd, 2012, 08:37 AM #391
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Initially I thought it was crap. I mean I saw the "what a twist" coming from the first few minutes of the game and felt it was "confirmed" about 1/3 of the way through. Then everyone started raving about how awesome the "twist' was and how "no one saw it coming" etc...
A few months ago Shamus Young basically laid the entire plot out in a critique/review and it reminded of how much I thought the writting was actually good (if not great). Game play was weak sure, and being as "genre savy" as I am on "Asian Marital Arts" stories I saw the twist coming... and yet his write up reminded of all things I liked when I played it through... and Jade Empire was good enough for me play it all the way through to the end first go, despite what I saw as it's flaws. Which is pretty rare.*
So yeah... I'd like see another Martial Arts RPG set in the Jade Empire.
* For instance it took two tries to get through Fallout 1 (F2 was finished in 1 go), I've never actually finished any Elder Scrolls game even though I love a few of them to pieces, it took 6 goes to get through Fallout 3 and I've never finished F:NV (even though NV is far superior to 3), it took 3 tried to finish Fallout Tactics... the only Warcraft game I finished in the first playthrough was 1, the others both took several tries before I had the stamina to go all the way. I did finish Starcraft and Broodwar in the first (and every subsequent) playthrough so, that's something different. I also managed to finish every Deus Ex and System Shock game in the first playthrough (and in subsequent playthroughs where applicable). I finish Diablo 1 and 2 in on every character (and the expansion for about half the characters).
I do though finish almost every non-rpg turn-based strategic or tactical game I've ever played, but's a whole different kettle of fish.
Oh, I finished every Thief game on the first go and failed to finish any S.T.A.L.K.E.R. games (they're too scary ) even though I do love S.T.A.L.K.E.R.
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April 2nd, 2012, 09:01 AM #392
But besides that there will likely be another full Mass Effect game before Jade Empire. If anything EA will push for the proven money maker sequel.
April 2nd, 2012, 09:09 AM #393
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- Apr 2006
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I agree that a Jade Empire sequel would be cool, but I consider it unlikely because JE is viewed by many as the "red-headed stepchild" of the Bioware family. It's greatly overshadowed by Bioware's more successful franchises like BG, KOTOR, DA, and ME.
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April 2nd, 2012, 10:13 AM #394
Also, Bioware has already strongly hinted that we'll be able to use our game saves in the future. And they've straight-up said there is more Mass Effect to come. The least of which will be ME3 DLC if not more full games. I absolutely believe there will be more games after this latest batch of DLC. I've been saying that longer than the game has been out.
I'll even link the thread for ya.
That flushing noise is your credibility.
Please explain how the kid escaped the reaper beam/blast at the beginning near the apartments. Why didn't Anderson notice Shepard was talking to someone in the air vent? And how, right before that, did the kid waltz through a (red) locked door? Sure, that could have been a real kid but there is no way someone survives that blast with all the wreckage inside.
Want more than just the kid? Okay, here ya go: How the hell is Anderson in near-perfect condition (I think I might have seen a slight bruise on his cheek but the rest of him is absolutely fine) on the Citadel when first meeting up after Harbinger's beam? He was in the charge and should at least show some signs of battle and carnage. Why are there keepers in the corridor leading to Anderson doing something on non-existent noises. Why are the not-there consoles making console sounds?
There are a plenty more obvious ones, too. See below.
The point of the kid and all his weirdness could reflect the process and the fight have started from the moment the game starts. Why else would would the kid be the very first thing we see at the start of the game? In other media, that type of thing means something very specific to the narrative. Could be something obvious but it could also be something much deeper.
Ghost-kid also flat lies about the destroy option killing Shepard. Shepard wakes up at the very end if destroy is picked (and if EMS is high enough). This isn't obvious and it took a second playthrough to notice but in the other two, Shepard's eyes do a weird glowy thing (very similar to TIM's) and her skin melts off to show what appears to be a husk-like coating. Could be interpreted as the final steps of indoctrination Shepard has now given in and no longer is willing to destroy the Reapers.
Another obvious one is the Citadel choice mechanisms: Why are the machines color coded? The Citadel is frickin' ancient. Makes zero sense.
Also ridiculous the point where it needs to be explored deeper is Joker's retreat and squad members showing up on the Normandy that was no where close to where the squad was: at the beam to the Citadel. The squad getting on is ridiculous but leaving without Shepard is just as stupid and nonsensical. So much so that it's possible it never happened and is only a manifestation in Shepard's mind.
Yup, there has been no controversy over Blade Runner and its multiple releases.
April 2nd, 2012, 10:22 AM #395
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- May 2006
Another big problem with Indoctrination is that it makes no difference. Whatever you pick, Shepard defeats the Reapers, the galaxy rebuilds and he becomes famous as the Shepherd. Shouldn't such a great person succumbing to indoctrination have at least some consequences? Or are you arguing that that's part of the dream sequence too?
April 2nd, 2012, 01:36 PM #396
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- Apr 2006
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If the ending sequence as a whole was just kind of blah (as it was for me in Dragon Age: II) then, I could at least say, "Well, that's too bad. The ending was kind of blah."
But the ending was absolutely awesome until the very, very end. It's harder to see something that could have been good go bad, as opposed to just seeing something that's bad upfront. If you see that it's bad upfront, then you turn off your brain and say, "Well, I'll just enjoy the gameplay at this point. Or, well, you know. It wasn't good, but I can enjoy this part of it."
Yep. I agree with this.Originally Posted by nail bunnyThis quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member.
Last edited by Tabloid Believer; April 2nd, 2012 at 01:39 PM.
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April 2nd, 2012, 02:17 PM #397
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- Feb 2007
- Tampa, Florida
So, I am on my 3rd playthrough.
I always play ME games multiple times, purposely making some different choices to see how things play out differently.
ME 3 doesn't disappoint in that regard. The subtle differences in the story are GREAT. My only real gripe about the game, except for those crappy last 20 minutes or so, would be Jack doesn't really have a romance subplot.
On the other hand, in this game I romanced Tali in ME, after romancing Ashley in ME 1, and the catfighting is hilarious.
April 2nd, 2012, 02:23 PM #398
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April 2nd, 2012, 03:02 PM #399
Our goal was to destroy the Reapers in Mass Effect 3. Bring this arc to conclusion. But it doesn't - it instead ends on an indoctrination dream sequence?
I mean, i am not opposed to the Indoctrination plot, but it has the problem that the game isn't over where it should be over.
And if we ignore the Indoctrination theory, the problem remains all the other questions that are unanswered - how did the Citadel Security war assets even contribute to the war? What's that long-range Reaper scanning thing for? How does any of what the star child says makes even sense in the context of what we've seen so far, and why doesn't Shepard react to that?
There are too many holes in the story for it to be a good ending.
You can have open endings by not answering questions, but you should ensure that the simplest answer to any question is not "The writers screwed this up".
That is not like the Blade Runner ending - the alternative, simpler interpretation is not "the writers screwed up" - It's just the protagonist is a human and that's all there is to it.
April 2nd, 2012, 03:08 PM #400
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Also, wasn't the ambiguous Blade Runner ending the one test audiences rejected as confusing?
Ridley Scott liked it best, so it's been in most of the DVD releases, but I think the theatrical release had a much more definitive, happy ending.
And hey- a work of art that changed its ending post release! Huh, how unheard of.
April 2nd, 2012, 03:49 PM #401
Everything below (and really anything I've posted about the endings so far) should have a "could be interpreted as" somewhere in there. If there is something in the game that disproves any of the interpretations some rethinking is likely required. If it's something really big, especially something that I really like or encompasses much of what happened that could be a problem. I'd have to look at the whole thing again from a different view point.
Consequences for taking either the control or synthesis endings along with an appropriately high EMS? Those weren't for my Shepard.
But to answer directly: One interpretation could be that once Shepard is fully indoctrinated by not destroying the Reapers, they have won or will eventually win. The continued visions are Shepard thinking all is well with friends and loved ones as they escape while the sacrifice consumes her. Even the player doesn't realize at this point they've been duped into not being willing to destroy the Reapers and instead take the same option as either Saren or TIM. It could be interpreted that the player has also been indoctrinated. You can see in both those endings that the kid (Harbinger?) sticks around to watch the show as Shepard is consumed. It's almost sinister in comparison. In the destroy ending he disappears almost instantly. Not to mention Shepard's limp disappears right away. Adrenaline? Maybe. Could also be a mental manifestation of Shepard's burden being lifted as the weight of struggle is over.
The other scenes are BS, just like they were in the destroy ending. It's all in Shepard's mind as wishful thinking. And just like Saren and TIM, Shepard believed she was doing things for the greater good until it was too late. Without Shepard fully on their side it's likely that she lead them to destruction. Or possibly someone (her lover? Anderson?) put a bullet in her head after discovering she was indoctrinated. Or Maybe the Reapers were defeated anyway due to Shepard's previous actions. But perhaps not for good.
As to the endings not making any difference ... that's not a problem with the major part of the Indoctrination Theory. That problem belongs to the perception of the player getting wrapped up in the similarities but ignoring the details. It can work with each of the 3 paths chosen just like each person's Shepard is different and unique to that player even if they picked the exact same choices the entire game. And no one said the IT is an cure-all "fix" to the ending to ME3. It's an interpretation that states clearly that there is a right way to finish things off and a way that leads to indoctrination.
April 2nd, 2012, 03:50 PM #402
April 2nd, 2012, 04:07 PM #403
If you've trusted Bioware before and enjoyed their endings I suggest tossing them some benefit of the doubt, do some poking around and go from there. Try and set aside some of your own expectations for a bit while doing it, that can help. Think for a moment about if they were aiming higher this time with the added burden of being the first folks to ever take on a piece of interactive entertainment like this on top of knowing that no matter how it ended not everyone was going to be pleased.
Then if you come back to it still being crap that's fine. My only real issue is anyone who (not that I'm saying you are doing this) just goes with the lazy take away of "crap writing" when so much more was put on the table.
April 2nd, 2012, 04:22 PM #404
Obviously you and others don't agree. I get that.
April 2nd, 2012, 04:35 PM #405
It's like the chubby kid at the cookout who says the hotdogs sucked and that his uncle should have made them different. Then mom asks him why he ate so many of them and is now asking for another hotdog.