Thread: MASS EFFECT 3 PLAYTHROUGH WITH SPOILERS!

  1. #241
    jowly Tabloid Believer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JC View Post
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    Just because Bioware is responding to the backlash doesn't mean they are concerned about their reputation. Sure, they could be, it could also be a number of things and reputation is at the very bottom of that list. Or the top. Or not at all. We'll see how truly concerned about their rep they are when the DLC comes out. Will it be free? We'll see. Talk is cheap.
    No, it will not be free. I agree with you there. However, I don't see that as the "only venue for apology either". If they change the ending at all or add to it, but still charge for it - I will see that as an apology on their part.

    I also don't see why you are saying that this is only 10 to 15 minutes of the game. It's not just 10 to 15 minutes of the game. It's the end of the game. It's the end of the trilogy. That's a big deal.

    Along with reports of all the displeasure are also plenty of pieces about the controversy overall. It should be no surprise that the negativity is the loudest voice in this whole thing, as previously stated. That voice is far from the only one. And these voices will continue to churn into discussion and debate the farther away we get from the initial surge of displeased reaction and butthurt.
    So, I once agreed with you very much.

    However, I have never seen it taken to this level: where dozens of articles about people mad about the ending of a game have popped up all over the place; where over $80,000 in charity donations were collected in support of a new ending; where "send in" campaigns are being run...all for the end of a game.

    Yeah, the reaction to the end of Fallout 3 pales in comparison to this.

    You seem to be saying that the end was only controversial and that the angry voices are the loudest ones. In that case, we should have seen the same reaction to the end of Portal and Portal 2. We haven't. We should have seen the same reaction to the end of Skyrim. We haven't.

    If this is just business as usual, where is the controversy with the other games out there?

    Let me be clear - I don't hate the ending like most of my friends do. My reaction is much like that of Yahtzee's. "Well, it could have been worse."

    But as far as the public reaction is concerned, I think that we've never seen anything like this. Which, actually, says a lot about Bioware and Mass Effect. I think people are reacting this strongly because they care a lot about the franchise. It's the risk you have when you are successful.
    "You think Osama is regretting giving his personal information on the Playstation Network?" - Remathilis

 

  • #242
    Cupcake at heart nail bunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tabloid Believer View Post
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    Yeah, the reaction to the end of Fallout 3 pales in comparison to this.
    Sure, even I agree to that. My point though is this isn't the first time a game ending has received bad reactions and then been changed.

    I also disagree that the ending is being changed because of these reastions, I'm pretty sure Bioware already had plans to do so (they want your money after all), it's just being spun as "reactionary".

    In that case, we should have seen the same reaction to the end of Portal and Portal 2.
    And why would there be? Portal 1 and 2 ended great. Even Fallout 3 had an ending that followed the game's genre and playstyle, it was just really stupid.


    The primary problem with ME3's ending is that it ignores the games very premise: Your choices matter.

    Not a single one of your choices throughout the series have any effect on the color-coded endings.

  • #243
    freaking RIPPED Rodrigo Istalindir's Avatar
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    The ending was half-assed, but frankly, I felt most of the game was half-assed (the Salarian/Krogan bits excepted, and maybe the Geth/Qarians). It felt a lot like the second one; run around putting together a team (or troops), then a fairly linear and short endgame. At least the end battle in 2 involved some choices and your whole team.

    Ironically, the episodic manner in which they did (and that sucked) Dragon Age 2 would have actually improved ME3. The passage of time never felt right, and at one point 2/3 of the way through someone explicitly references the 'weeks' since Earth was attacked. It should have been a years-long slog like they portrayed with the Protheans, with the situation getting more dire. Instead it was, 'Oh, hey, we *just now* discovered this superweapon and miraculously manage to *build* it in a couple months despite the unfamiliar and radically advanced technology required (and despite the only remaining Prothean that might understand it is hanging out in the bowels of my ship).

    The improvements to the game engine were welcome, and fights felt, for the most part, more dynamic, but the environments were still way too static and confined, missions were too linear, and for the most part too short.

  • #244
    Cupcake at heart nail bunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodrigo Istalindir View Post
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    Ironically, the episodic manner in which they did (and that sucked) Dragon Age 2 would have actually improved ME3. The passage of time never felt right, and at one point 2/3 of the way through someone explicitly references the 'weeks' since Earth was attacked.
    "Weeks"? Shepard goes to sleep like 3 times, so even figuring with the cybernetics keeping you active for days at a stretch your looking at two weeks tops.

    Two weeks. That's my take and I'm sticking with it.

  • #245
    let them eat arugula! Vigilance's Avatar
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    This article nicely summed up my feelings about the end I think:

    And then, at the peak of his story, the defining moment of Shepard’s Shepard-ness, his efforts prove useless, not because his enemies are too powerful, but because Space Jesus comes out from behind an unseen curtain and makes him play Let’s Make a Deal, with a slightly altered version of the same galaxy-rending cut scene going to the “winner.” It’s such a jarring change in the narrative that it sends players spiraling right out of the story at a time when it’s most critical for them to be engrossed in it.
    And, something folks around here might be able to relate to:

    The world of Mass Effect grew, multiplied, became enriched, and finally outsmarted its own creators, who did what every disgruntled Dungeon Master before them has done once they figured out they were no longer in charge of the story. Rocks fall, everyone dies, now get out of my house.
    More good stuff here: http://www.metropulse.com/news/2012/...wreck-trilogy/

  • #246
    Publicity Stunt Vurt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nail bunny View Post
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    The primary problem with ME3's ending is that it ignores the games very premise: Your choices matter.

    Not a single one of your choices throughout the series have any effect on the color-coded endings.
    I have to disagree here. I've read quite a few comments to the effect that folks chose the synthesis option because they had earlier decided to reconcile the geth and the quarians, or because of EDI and Joker's burgeoning relationship. So earlier choices can and do affect which ending you choose.

    Quite frankly, it's the end of a trilogy. Realistically how can any choice you make, color-coded or otherwise, "matter"? It's still going to be the end of Shepard's story.

    Sure, I can see a different ending providing a better sense of closure to a fan of the games, but I haven't seen any examples of an ending that would matter in any meaningful sense. What exactly did you have in mind?

  • #247
    let them eat arugula! Vigilance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vurt View Post
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    I have to disagree here. I've read quite a few comments to the effect that folks chose the synthesis option because they had earlier decided to reconcile the geth and the quarians, or because of EDI and Joker's burgeoning relationship. So earlier choices can and do affect which ending you choose.

    Quite frankly, it's the end of a trilogy. Realistically how can any choice you make, color-coded or otherwise, "matter"? It's still going to be the end of Shepard's story.

    Sure, I can see a different ending providing a better sense of closure to a fan of the games, but I haven't seen any examples of an ending that would matter in any meaningful sense. What exactly did you have in mind?
    The problem is, this is what lead designer Casey Hudson led folks to believe Mass Effect 3 would be. Here's what he said:

    Yeah, and Iíd say much more so, because we have the ability to build the endings out in a way that we donít have to worry about eventually tying them back together somewhere. This story arc is coming to an end with this game. That means the endings can be a lot more different. At this point weíre taking into account so many decisions that youíve made as a player and reflecting a lot of that stuff. Itís not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C.
    http://www.gameinformer.com/b/featur...ostPageIndex=2

  • #248
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilance View Post
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    The problem is, this is what lead designer Casey Hudson led folks to believe Mass Effect 3 would be.
    If that's really the case (which I doubt, because I'm sure many of those up in arms over this have never read the quote in question), then how is Casey Hudson not talking about the endings of individual story arcs, like the genophage arc, or the quarian/geth arc, or even the Cerberus arc, as opposed to the last 10 minutes of the game?

    All that your final choice does is a) determine how you wish to finally deal with the Reapers, given how you've interacted with them and what you've learned about them (including what POTR tells you), and b) destroy the mass relay system. The first part lets you go out Paragon, Renegade or something in between, just like every other decision in the game. The second has been hinted at since ME, when it was revealed that the mass relay system was a method by which the Reapers influence the development of the galaxies various races, and so in order for the Reapers' hold to be gone for good, the relay system has got to go.

    Does it ultimately matter how you chose to play Mass Effect, as a paragon, a renegade or something in between? How does it reflect on you?

  • #249
    Cupcake at heart nail bunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vurt View Post
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    So earlier choices can and do affect which ending you choose.
    You've missed my point: I didn't want to get all the way to the end and then make a choice.

    I wanted all my choices up till then to determine the ending. I'm tired of playing a game where "your choices matter" and then getting a multiple choice button push at the end.

    Fallout 1-3 and NV, Deus Ex 1-3, etc. All the same.

    This game promised to be "different", no choosing between "A, B, and C". So what did we get at the end? Red, Blue, Green. Holy shit, I geuss that is a tremendous difference!




    Now do you see what I'm talking about?


    Quite frankly, it's the end of a trilogy. Realistically how can any choice you make, color-coded or otherwise, "matter"?
    It can't. So you fucking remove all choice at the fucking end and have the choices made along the way fucking matter AS WE WERE LEAD TO BELIEVE WOULD HAPPEN!


    Here, I'll quote exactly what I said 4 pages ago:


    Quote Originally Posted by nail bunny View Post
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    For me it wasn't the type of choice, it was that there was a "choice" at all.

    I wanted to see a climatic battle of epic showdowness, where the forces I'd gathered went toe to toe with the majority of the Reapers over the Earth.


    From there I could see a handful of endings:

    Not enough forces: The Reapers over run everything, galciv is ended in this cycle, Reapers win with the Crucible not being completed.

    Just enough forces: The Reapers are pressed back, forcing them to retreat from Earth and the galaxy to lick their wounds. Earth system is a ruin, Earth destroyed by the Crucible*, but the galaxy is given time to regroup, reestablish, and prepare for a proper defense should the Reapers return.

    More than enough forces: The Reapers are pressed back, forcing them to retreat from Earth and the galaxy to lick their wounds. The Earth is spared, but the galaxy is given time to regroup, reestablish, and prepare for a proper defense should the Reapers return.

    Overwhelming Force: The Reapers are pushed out of Earth space and routed enmass. Estimated Reaper casualites at 90%, enough galactic forces are left to pursue and finish the job. The galaxy is gravely wounded, but survived and Reaper cycle is broken for all time.


    * The Crucible: If enough "Crucible Engineering Teams" are gathered it is built, if enough "Crucible Defense Fleet" is gathered it survives to be deployed. In the last few missions, or at the last minute, or whatever but it's a "we're cutting it close" it is discovered that either the Crucible is a "POWER OVERWHELMING" weapon or it's fueled by planets, or something that could cause the Earth's destruction.

    I could even see having a final mission to retake the Crucible from Cerberus, so it is used properly, leaving Shepard and squad to have to push the big red button. From here the Crucible becomes a force multiplyer, if there are enough forces it need not be deployed, but it will make the job harder. If the Crucible uses a planet as it's "fuel" then if there is time it is redeployed to Mars and the Earth is spared. If it was simply a potent enough beam, it is either used and the Earth (with all the Reapers on and in orbit) is destroyed or as the Reapers are retreating it is fired destroying them. Whatever.




    Not the 3-button push ending we were given. Did I expect a better ending? Yes. Am I demanding a new ending? No. Is Bioware losing the respect I had for them over this "Buy a new ending" bullshit? Yes.

  • #250
    Quote Originally Posted by Vurt View Post
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    I have to disagree here. I've read quite a few comments to the effect that folks chose the synthesis option because they had earlier decided to reconcile the geth and the quarians, or because of EDI and Joker's burgeoning relationship. So earlier choices can and do affect which ending you choose.

    Quite frankly, it's the end of a trilogy. Realistically how can any choice you make, color-coded or otherwise, "matter"? It's still going to be the end of Shepard's story.

    Sure, I can see a different ending providing a better sense of closure to a fan of the games, but I haven't seen any examples of an ending that would matter in any meaningful sense. What exactly did you have in mind?
    I thought I posted something like that before?

    Anyway, here's one approach (that kinda assumes the Mass Relays remain intact or are reestablished quickly)

    Geth/Quarian:
    1) You made peace between them:
    They become the new major race of the Galaxy. Finally having their own planet back and combing the two most advanced technological species (since the Asari lost their Prothean cheat codes), they are a force to be reckoned with, and the spearhead the rebuilding of the new Citadel.
    Assuming Tali survived the finale, the Geth/Quarian are mostly a benevolent force, as she always reminds them of what Shepard did for them. If she died, the two believe that they are privileged and conquer a few minor garden worlds for themselves.

    2) You destroyed the Quarian
    The Geth are saddened by the destruction of their creators, but also angered by the Quarian forcing their hands. They isolate themselves for a century or so, to emerge back with a strong fleet during some other Galactic Conflict - this time with the goal of dominating the biological creatures around them to protect them from themselves. (More factors could influence how far they succeed, if at all)

    3) You destroyed the Geth
    The Quarian are back home, at a steep price. But they feel justified in their actions, and they rebuild their wold. They have one of the largest armed fleets remaining after the battle, and they use this, conquering garden worlds that were devestated by the Reapers. They are in conflict for a long time with the other races, but eventually they make peace and become a respected council member.

    Tuchanka/Krogan

    1) Destroyed/Sabotaged the Genophage Cure
    The Krogan are pissed off. Very much so. Not too long after the Reaper threat is eliminated, Wrex or Wrev launch a major assault on the Salarians, hoping to find the Genophage Cure in the debris. They fail - the Genophage Cure is for all intents and purposes destroyed by now, and the Salarians don't work on a new one.

    If Grunt survived, the Krogan will use Salarian technology to build cloninig tanks, creating more like Grunt. Without this, they are eventually beaten back by the Salarian and other races at great cost.

    a) Wrex dead, Grunt survived
    With the cloning tech only, the Krogan become focused on conquest, but the tech is not efficient enough to maintain it for long, and the Krogan become basically space pirates and mercenaries.

    b) Wrex and Grunt Survived
    If Wrex survives, the conquest of Salarian worlds eventually gives him access to Scientist that will help him.

    b) Wrex survived, Grunt dead
    The Krogan are forced back into their Mercenary life. Wrex marries a beautiful Asari and continues his legacy that way.

    d) Wrex dead, Grunt dead
    Wrev releases a deadly virus on the Salarian homeworld, killing billions of Salari eventually, continuing his legacy as the Krogan Poison. The Salarian survive only barely.

    2) Healed the Genophage
    The Krogan grow in strength, and they invariable put their mind to conquest.
    The various other races have to fight hard to keep them in check.

    a) Geth/Quarian Union: Geth and Quarian provide a sufficient technological advantage to keep the Krogan in check, until a peace is brokered, and the Krogan accept Salarian help to create a contraception method that is dispersed similar to the Genophage - but has a cure that a couple that wants to have children can take.

    b) Geth Only: The Geth destroy the Krogan almost entirely when they leave their isolation. They create a new Genophage with Salarian help. But the Krogan also break the back of the Geth ultimately - leading to their retreat eventually.

    c) Quarian Only: The Quarians effectively nuke all the worlds the Krogan's conquer in a desperate attempt to halt their advance. The Krogan's relatiate by devestating the Quarian homeworld. The Quarian response is worse - they destroy the Mass Relay leading to Tuchanka, isolating the Krogan in their corner of the Galaxy for centuries.

    If Wrex or Grunt survived

    Mass Relays Destroyed
    Quantum Entanglement Devices become the new way of transportation - instead of actually transporting someone, though, instead a link is established to a remote drone, that relays all information to the user.
    1) Synthesis
    Eventually, this technology goes further than that - the mind is indepedent of an actual body, people merely use bodies as a "platform". Transhumanism abounds, thanks to the union of biological and synthetic life.

    2) Control of the Reapers
    Controlling the reapers gives access to its unique technology, allowing to reestablish Mass Relays within a few decades of research and building.
    a) Genophage cured
    The Krogan become a powerful force and start a conquest that is only held in check by the Reapers under Earth's control.

    b) Genophage Cure sabotaged
    The Krogan manage to wiggle the control of a few Reapers, forcing the Salarian to create a cure. If Wrex is dead, Wrev breaks his promise and destroys the Salarian anyway after the cure is finished.


    3) Destruction of the Reapers
    Researching the Reaper remains eventually gives access to some of the secrets. Thanks to the QED communication, finding all the clues becomes easier than it normally would be. After a century or so, the first Mass Relays are rebuild.

    a) Genophage cured
    The Krogan spread through the space they can reach, rapidly colonizing the worlds. Civil War erupts as resources are fought for. Grunt and Wrex or Wrev end up on opposing sides. Wrex can beat Grunt's side and kills him, otherwise Grunt kills Wrev. Either way, the mass relays to Krogan space are reestablished last (If Grunt survives and was loyal or Wrex survives, they have help, otherwise, they build it themself), and the Krogan found their own solution to overpopulation.

    b) Genophage sabotaged
    Isolated on their devestated homeworld, the Krogan destroy themselves in a fight for conflict. They almost destroy themselves over it. (Depending on whether Grunt lives and/or Wrex lives, they actually destroy each other.)

    ---
    Last edited by Mustrum_Ridcully; March 28th, 2012 at 06:25 PM.

  • #251
    Cupcake at heart nail bunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vurt View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member.
    If that's really the case (which I doubt, because I'm sure many of those up in arms over this have never read the quote in question), then how is Casey Hudson not talking about the endings of individual story arcs, like the genophage arc, or the quarian/geth arc, or even the Cerberus arc, as opposed to the last 10 minutes of the game?
    I'll highlight the relevant part you failed to read:

    "It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C."

    Right there. Traditional Game Ending. Not "traditional story arc ending", "traditional game ending".

    Followed by:

    "It’s more like there are some really obvious things that are different and then lots and lots of smaller things, lots of things about who lives and who dies, civilizations that rose and fell, all the way down to individual characters. That becomes the state of where you left your galaxy. The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in them."

    From this you could infer he's talking about the story arc endings. Sure. Except those are all binary/trinary states as well, all them come down to A or B choices at best with only a few minor elements to modify them.

    Do you cure the Genophage: Press A to let Mordin die and cure it, B to have him live and not cure it.

    The Geth/Quarian War: Press A the kill the Geth, press B to kill the Quarians, press C to have them live in harmony. The "C" option will be avialable to those whom did things in a very specific manner in ME2.

    The Rachni: Press A to sacrifice the Queen, press B to sacrifice the krogan squad and save the Queen.

    And so on. So even the story arcs are all "A/B/C" choices at their culminations.


    "It would be interesting to see if somebody could put together a chart for that. Even with Mass Effect 2’s..."

    It's already happened. Well, perhaps not a "chart" but the Mass Effect wiki has listed the outcomes of all your choices.. so it's not that complex or difficult.


    Does it ultimately matter how you chose to play Mass Effect, as a paragon, a renegade or something in between? How does it reflect on you?
    Not at all. Your playstyle up to the end has no bearing on it. You can make whatever choice you want and get the same color coded endings regardless of how you played.

    Were you a total ass the whole way? Your color choices looked the exact same as the person who was saintly angel.

    I chose Blue. I'll bet my Blue 50/50 playthrough choice looked the same as everyone elses with only one difference: Who got off with Joker. One of the companions is your romance, the other is random.


    And that in a nutshell is what was wrong with the ending.
    Last edited by nail bunny; March 28th, 2012 at 06:31 PM.

  • #252
    Publicity Stunt Vurt's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nail bunny View Post
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    You've missed my point: I didn't want to get all the way to the end and then make a choice.
    Then I suppose, by your own words, you should be happy, because you got to the end and didn't make a choice, not really:

    Quote Originally Posted by nail bunny View Post
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    So what did we get at the end? Red, Blue, Green. Holy shit, I geuss that is a tremendous difference!
    But I do get what you're saying. The climax of the game could have certainly been better handled. Do the planet scan to get some alien dinosaur DNA and, in the final run, find yourself supported by krogan riding dinosaurs--how cool would that have been!?! Or watch Kirrahe and some other salarian operatives blow up a building full of reaper forces pinning you down. Little vignettes like that sprinkled in the end run would have been awesome.

    Sadly, the path not taken...

  • #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustrum_Ridcully View Post
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    I thought I posted something like that before?

    Anyway, here's one approach (that kinda assumes the Mass Relays remain intact or are reestablished quickly)
    I'm not going to address the whole thing, other than to say there's a lot of good stuff in here, and some of it would be greatly ambitious to somehow fit into an entirely separate game, much less shoehorn into the closing of this one.

    But all the individual and unique branches would be extremely difficult to incorporate into some kind of Mass Effect 4, whatever that might happen to look like, without choosing some kind of canon option. And I'm sure BioWare is trying to keep their options open along that front, even if they don't have any specific plans yet. (And who knows?)

    That said, you kinda make a good argument for something along the lines of DLC that that addresses stuff that happens on Tutchanka after the relay collapse, or on the quarian homeworld, or just how fucked is Palavan. Stories of other characters picking up the pieces or dealing with what gets left behind. What you describe are stories that would be better played, than told.

  • #254
    let them eat arugula! Vigilance's Avatar
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    I also hope we get DLC of taking back Omega.

    And at a minimum, we're going to have to see how the Mass Effect relays get repaired.

  • #255
    Quote Originally Posted by Vigilance View Post
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    And at a minimum, we're going to have to see how the Mass Effect relays get repaired.
    And why the Krogan don't take over the whole universe. With that many Krogan across the galaxy, mostly free of Eve and Wrex's control, able to reproduce (rapidly, in large numbers), willing to eat sentient life, and generally belligerent toward the other races, it's pretty much a foregone conclusion.

    All hail our Krogan Overloads*!





    *Please don't eat me!
    Last edited by Janos; March 28th, 2012 at 07:24 PM.

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