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Thread: Illegal Everyting

  1. #1
    Official Topic Approver COMMUNITY SUPPORTER Strithe's Avatar
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    Illegal Everyting

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuIah...ature=youtu.be

    A couple of caveats: yes I know itís Foxaganda, and I know Stosselís ďgive me a breakĒ schtick is annoying, and that itís over 40 minutes long. Itís a relatively short distillation of the issues I find important, and you can limit yourself to the first 15 minutes & get the basic idea.

    I mainly want to use it as a point of discussion on some issues with regards to government regulation & enforcement of said regulations. Iíd like to ask questions of the progressives on CM because Iím honestly confused about stated goals of progressivism vs. how nominally progressive politicians actually legislate. Iím also curious because I often see behavior that in any other context would be regarded as atrocious uses of force or intimidation via legislation rigorously defended by progressives when the target is a business or property owner rather than the poor.

    1. Do progressives believe in a point of diminishing return with regards to regulatory complexity?
    2. Do you believe it a productive use of the justice system to incarcerate people for technical violations of the law? Should it be a felony to import improperly packaged lobsters or sell raw milk?
    3. Related to #2, is it justifiable to use armed police raids to issue arrest or search warrants for people who are suspected of breaking regulatory or health codes?
    4. How do you feel about, ďaccidental entrapment?Ē By this Iím referring to what frequently happens (Iíve gotten bitten by it several times) when you actually try do the right thing & get the proper permits, but then run afoul of the law because either the official you asked didnít know what they were talking about, or because while you complied with government agency A you werenít aware that government agencies B or C have parallel enforcement.
    5. Progressives believe in individual the right to marriage equality, universal healthcare, adequate food, and housing. Do progressives believe in the right to earn a living as an individual?
    6. Is it acceptable to you that in many of the examples shown, police arrested & incarcerated people falsely but generally suffered no consequences for it? Would you support removing civil litigation immunities from law enforcement in cases of abuse? (keep in mind by "law enforcement" I'm referring not only to cops, but prosecutors & bureaucrats with enforcement powers).
    7. If prohibition of alcohol was such an utter failure, why do some progressives still believe in the prohibition of and illegal drugs? Why do most progressives believe that prohibition of things like prohibition of prostitution or "harmful" foods?

 

  • #2
    First Day On The Internet Calamari Face's Avatar
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    I'd rather just answer the questions without subjecting myself to the obligatory 40 minutes (or 15) of Hate. I mean, Jeez, even Orwell's nightmare world was limited to 2.

    But, before proceeding, I'll see how others want to play.



    I don't think CF and I agree on much at all, and probably not this. -- Ovinomancer, The Senate, 28 June 2011

    I find myself in full agreement with CF. -- Ovinomancer, The Senate, 1 July 2011


    Larry Sanders 2016!

  • #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Strithe;1393862
    [LIST=1
    [*] Do progressives believe in a point of diminishing return with regards to regulatory complexity?
    To be efficient, regulation must be clearly understandable. Don't confuse "progressives" and "bureaucrats". And remember that the most bizzaro regulations often originate from the action of powerful lobbies...

    [*] Do you believe it a productive use of the justice system to incarcerate people for technical violations of the law? Should it be a felony to import improperly packaged lobsters or sell raw milk?
    Come on, I'm French. Raw milk, or products made from raw milk are of course OK, and forbidding them or trying to make them illegal bear the stench of big business and anglo-saxon (or german) illiterate hygienism.
    Now, if we talk about product like leaded toys or poisoned milk, or low grade breast implant, I do think that the guilty should be incarcerated.

    [*] Related to #2, is it justifiable to use armed police raids to issue arrest or search warrants for people who are suspected of breaking regulatory or health codes?
    No. But is that related to progressivism, or to the US Cult of Big Bad Ass Gun Wielding Cops ?

    [*] How do you feel about, ďaccidental entrapment?Ē By this Iím referring to what frequently happens (Iíve gotten bitten by it several times) when you actually try do the right thing & get the proper permits, but then run afoul of the law because either the official you asked didnít know what they were talking about, or because while you complied with government agency A you werenít aware that government agencies B or C have parallel enforcement.
    I think you should be able to prosecute the inept administration that gave you bad guidance.

    [*] Progressives believe in individual the right to marriage equality, universal healthcare, adequate food, and housing. Do progressives believe in the right to earn a living as an individual?
    Yes. But exactly like your are not allowed to marry your infant sister, you are not allowed to earn a living as a hired killed or as a drug dealer (see below).

    [*] Is it acceptable to you that in many of the examples shown, police arrested & incarcerated people falsely but generally suffered no consequences for it? Would you support removing civil litigation immunities from law enforcement in cases of abuse? (keep in mind by "law enforcement" I'm referring not only to cops, but prosecutors & bureaucrats with enforcement powers).
    Where did you get the idea that progressive love unchecked police powers ?

    [*] If prohibition of alcohol was such an utter failure, why do some progressives still believe in the prohibition of and illegal drugs? Why do most progressives believe that prohibition of things like prohibition of prostitution or "harmful" foods?[/LIST]
    I do think cannabis, and tobacco, should be state monopolies, so that we can kill the mafia economy. Heroine, crack and similar highly dangerous stuff should stay illegal.
    As for prostitution, I'm for prosecuting (as harshly as the worst case of rape) the pimps and slave traders and leaving the prostitutes alone. I wonder if targeting the clients work, as what is being done in Sweden.

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    First Day On The Internet Calamari Face's Avatar
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    Ah good. Aloysius is on top of it.

    And swiped my "no right to work as a hitman" counter.

    Two observations:

    1) As Paul Krugman says, "I am not your mirror image". The best way to understand the political opposition is emphatically not to take everything you believe in and invert it. So, if you're conservative, you should not--if understanding and dialog is your goal--say things like, "I hate paying taxes. Fuckin' liberals must love it!" or "I think the government is too big. Progressives must think it's too small!"

    An obvious example of why this method is broken, which somehow seems to be regularly overlooked, is "I think government is involved in some things it really has no business in". You'll find that progressives often hold the same position. They typically don't want the state involved in refereeing sex acts between consenting adults, or imposing a requirement that a woman undergo extra, medically superfluous, procedures so she can be "really sure" she wants an abortion.

    The strangely fitting this about this "no mirror image" logic is that it, in the United States as presently configured, doesn't actually work on itself. That is, when a progressive takes a statement like "we have to have taxes to pay for government functions", you can all too often find a conservative--probably a libertarian--who will say "no you don't!"

    Yes, the problem with turning this observation on its head is that people like Ayn Rand, Murray Rothbard, and Grover Norquist exist (or passed away in living memory) and command significant ideological influence.

    2) And while per the above, I have few notions of what you, Strithe, believe personally, in my Progressive ideal state, typos in thread titles would certainly land you some serious jail time.
    Last edited by Calamari Face; February 29th, 2012 at 11:07 PM. Reason: I R C0H3RUNT



    I don't think CF and I agree on much at all, and probably not this. -- Ovinomancer, The Senate, 28 June 2011

    I find myself in full agreement with CF. -- Ovinomancer, The Senate, 1 July 2011


    Larry Sanders 2016!

  • #5
    cowabunga! Remathilis's Avatar
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    tl;dw

    Quote Originally Posted by Strithe View Post
    [*] Do progressives believe in a point of diminishing return with regards to regulatory complexity?
    There is a diminishing return on any complex institution. You can over-regulate anything, but the opposite of over-regulation is NOT laize-faire.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strithe View Post
    [*] Do you believe it a productive use of the justice system to incarcerate people for technical violations of the law? Should it be a felony to import improperly packaged lobsters or sell raw milk?
    No. That's what we have misdemeanors and fines for. Prisons are too overpopulated with nonviolent offenders as is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strithe View Post
    [*] Related to #2, is it justifiable to use armed police raids to issue arrest or search warrants for people who are suspected of breaking regulatory or health codes?
    Selling raw milk? Probably not. Selling human cadavers as sausage, you better fucking believe it!

    Quote Originally Posted by Strithe View Post
    [*] How do you feel about, ďaccidental entrapment?Ē By this Iím referring to what frequently happens (Iíve gotten bitten by it several times) when you actually try do the right thing & get the proper permits, but then run afoul of the law because either the official you asked didnít know what they were talking about, or because while you complied with government agency A you werenít aware that government agencies B or C have parallel enforcement.
    I feel that such cases should be handled on a case-by-case basis.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strithe View Post
    [*] Progressives believe in individual the right to marriage equality, universal healthcare, adequate food, and housing. Do progressives believe in the right to earn a living as an individual?
    Isn't that the point of such things like the American's with Disabilities Act? As long as the living isn't earned in a way that is illegal or harmful to others...

    Quote Originally Posted by Strithe View Post
    [*] Is it acceptable to you that in many of the examples shown, police arrested & incarcerated people falsely but generally suffered no consequences for it? Would you support removing civil litigation immunities from law enforcement in cases of abuse? (keep in mind by "law enforcement" I'm referring not only to cops, but prosecutors & bureaucrats with enforcement powers).
    Dicey. I don't want cops sued for doing their job, but I don't like abuse of power any more than you do.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strithe View Post
    [*] If prohibition of alcohol was such an utter failure, why do some progressives still believe in the prohibition of and illegal drugs? Why do most progressives believe that prohibition of things like prohibition of prostitution or "harmful" foods?
    I don't like to see prohibition, I like to see tight regulation of such things. Perhaps some things that are beyond "cautious use" (like heroin or crack) can be prohibited, I see no problem in allowing small amounts of pot or self-employed women being paid for sexual favor. Regulate and tax the shit out of it.

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  • #6
    Cockface! Turjan's Avatar
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    I don't want to watch any video here, either, so I'll just tackle the questions.

    Do progressives believe in a point of diminishing return with regards to regulatory complexity?
    Is that a trick question? Is there anyone who does not? I come from the country that produced many or the regulatory norms that seem to be used in many parts of the world, so I know how this feels. The US don't really have that many regulations. They tend to be a bit opaque because every little town can add to the pile of regulations at their leisure. Bureaucracy can go a bit overboard here in the US, though. The amount of produced paper that has to be filled out easily beats what I am used to from at home.

    Do you believe it a productive use of the justice system to incarcerate people for technical violations of the law? Should it be a felony to import improperly packaged lobsters or sell raw milk?
    I don't think that trying to poison people for profit is something that should be seen as harmless misdemeanor. I'm not sure about raw milk, though. Unlike what Aloysius seem to think, we had raw milk in Germany prior to the EU prohibition, so I don't know where that came from.

    Related to #2, is it justifiable to use armed police raids to issue arrest or search warrants for people who are suspected of breaking regulatory or health codes?
    Eh, that's something typically American. Police here just loves to wave their guns around. Also, putting people first into jail because of pretty much everything is uniquely American.

    How do you feel about, ďaccidental entrapment?Ē By this Iím referring to what frequently happens (Iíve gotten bitten by it several times) when you actually try do the right thing & get the proper permits, but then run afoul of the law because either the official you asked didnít know what they were talking about, or because while you complied with government agency A you werenít aware that government agencies B or C have parallel enforcement.
    That's also something typically American. Laws here are very rigid and don't leave much leeway in such cases. Give the judges more room to use common sense.

    Progressives believe in individual the right to marriage equality, universal
    healthcare, adequate food, and housing. Do progressives believe in the right to earn a living as an individual?
    That's the second purely polemic question that doesn't really deserve an answer.

    Is it acceptable to you that in many of the examples shown, police arrested & incarcerated people falsely but generally suffered no consequences for it? Would you support removing civil litigation immunities from law enforcement in cases of abuse? (keep in mind by "law enforcement" I'm referring not only to cops, but prosecutors & bureaucrats with enforcement powers).
    That's also something typically American. Monetary compensations in lawsuits are so ridiculously high that the administrations are compelled to exempt themselves from being sued. I still remember my surprise when I found a vehicle standing on my clearly marked parking spot and asked an employee of the facility to have that car removed. She looked at me as if she saw an alien (well, technically she did) "But that's a government vehicle!" My response "Sure. And?" At home you would just get it towed, and the driver would have to pay the fine.

    If prohibition of alcohol was such an utter failure, why do some progressives still believe in the prohibition of and illegal drugs? Why do most progressives believe that prohibition of things like prohibition of prostitution or "harmful" foods?
    Didn't you mix a few things up here? I don't think the prohibition of illegal drugs or prostitution comes from the "progressive" corner. Quite the opposite. Harmful foods though, yes.

  • #7
    pug cat! the Jester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strithe View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuIah...ature=youtu.be

    A couple of caveats: yes I know itís Foxaganda, and I know Stosselís ďgive me a breakĒ schtick is annoying, and that itís over 40 minutes long.
    So you know that nobody's going to watch it, in other words?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strithe View Post
    [*] Do progressives believe in a point of diminishing return with regards to regulatory complexity?
    Doesn't everyone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strithe View Post
    [*] Do you believe it a productive use of the justice system to incarcerate people for technical violations of the law? Should it be a felony to import improperly packaged lobsters or sell raw milk?
    Not a binary. What's a technical violation? Surely this is a range of things?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strithe View Post
    [*] Related to #2, is it justifiable to use armed police raids to issue arrest or search warrants for people who are suspected of breaking regulatory or health codes?
    Not a binary. Some regulation breaking is far worse than others.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strithe View Post
    [*] How do you feel about, ďaccidental entrapment?Ē By this Iím referring to what frequently happens (Iíve gotten bitten by it several times) when you actually try do the right thing & get the proper permits, but then run afoul of the law because either the official you asked didnít know what they were talking about, or because while you complied with government agency A you werenít aware that government agencies B or C have parallel enforcement.
    The law ought to take into consideration your good faith effort.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strithe View Post
    [*] Progressives believe in individual the right to marriage equality, universal healthcare, adequate food, and housing. Do progressives believe in the right to earn a living as an individual?
    All this deserves is a

    Quote Originally Posted by Strithe View Post
    [*] Is it acceptable to you that in many of the examples shown, police arrested & incarcerated people falsely but generally suffered no consequences for it? Would you support removing civil litigation immunities from law enforcement in cases of abuse? (keep in mind by "law enforcement" I'm referring not only to cops, but prosecutors & bureaucrats with enforcement powers).
    False arrest and incarceration is a problem when it happens as a result of bad faith. In these cases, I do think the citizen needs real recourse against the authority in question.

    Quote Originally Posted by Strithe View Post
    [*] If prohibition of alcohol was such an utter failure, why do some progressives still believe in the prohibition of and illegal drugs? Why do most progressives believe that prohibition of things like prohibition of prostitution or "harmful" foods?
    I'm beginning to suspect that you are just making shit up now and throwing it to see what you can get to stick. Which progressives are you talking about here?
    Spoiler Alert!

  • #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Strithe View Post
    I mainly want to use it as a point of discussion on some issues with regards to government regulation & enforcement of said regulations. Iíd like to ask questions of the progressives on CM because Iím honestly confused about stated goals of progressivism vs. how nominally progressive politicians actually legislate. Iím also curious because I often see behavior that in any other context would be regarded as atrocious uses of force or intimidation via legislation rigorously defended by progressives when the target is a business or property owner rather than the poor.
    I don't see most of the stuff in the video as some kind of indictment of progressiveness, but rather an indictment of an overly litigious and increasingly bureaucratic society; that's on both houses.

    Your harsh, draconian drug laws and the racially-biased sentencing that goes with them are the direct children of Saint Reagan and Bush 1; no progressive input needed there. They directed the largest intrusions and insinuations of the government into people's personal lives in more than a century.

    The raids against businesses are a prime example of poor communication, poor writing, poor training, and poorly-written laws in general. But business also doesn't need a free hand to do whatever it wants, or you'll end up like China with plastic pellets acting as fillers in food. You have a right to earn a living as long as you're not an asshole about it, or think your right to some dollars allows you to take shortcuts that endanger people's health and well-being.

  • #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Strithe View Post

    1. Do progressives believe in a point of diminishing return with regards to regulatory complexity?
    2. Do you believe it a productive use of the justice system to incarcerate people for technical violations of the law? Should it be a felony to import improperly packaged lobsters or sell raw milk?
    3. Related to #2, is it justifiable to use armed police raids to issue arrest or search warrants for people who are suspected of breaking regulatory or health codes?
    4. How do you feel about, ďaccidental entrapment?Ē By this Iím referring to what frequently happens (Iíve gotten bitten by it several times) when you actually try do the right thing & get the proper permits, but then run afoul of the law because either the official you asked didnít know what they were talking about, or because while you complied with government agency A you werenít aware that government agencies B or C have parallel enforcement.
    5. Progressives believe in individual the right to marriage equality, universal healthcare, adequate food, and housing. Do progressives believe in the right to earn a living as an individual?
    6. Is it acceptable to you that in many of the examples shown, police arrested & incarcerated people falsely but generally suffered no consequences for it? Would you support removing civil litigation immunities from law enforcement in cases of abuse? (keep in mind by "law enforcement" I'm referring not only to cops, but prosecutors & bureaucrats with enforcement powers).
    7. If prohibition of alcohol was such an utter failure, why do some progressives still believe in the prohibition of and illegal drugs? Why do most progressives believe that prohibition of things like prohibition of prostitution or "harmful" foods?
    1. Yes, although business interests aren't innocent in this. There are plenty of regulations that exist to protect established business interests.

    2. Knowingly selling tainted food should be criminal. Selling food that has a slightly higher risk factor(raw milk) to customers willing to take the risk should be fine.

    3. Are people being hurt? Need more specifics.

    4. That is a failure of the system. Sucks, we should strive to correct regulatory clusterfucks of this variety.

    5. [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eT1etlIZmis"]Crass - Do They Owe Us A Living? (with lyrics) - YouTube[/ame]

    I think citizens should have jobs if they want them.

    6. If police break the law they should suffer for it.

    7. I am for prohibition of none of these things.

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-qdQ2AI2H0"]HANK 3 - IT MUST HAVE BEEN THOSE PILLS I TOOK - YouTube[/ame]
    Quote Originally Posted by Ovinomancer View Post
    Fine, I'll say it because it's obvious -- VK is 100% right

  • #10
    I want watermelon! Bagpuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strithe View Post
    How do you feel about, ďaccidental entrapment?Ē By this Iím referring to what frequently happens (Iíve gotten bitten by it several times)
    Can you talk about your experience of this?
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Oliver View Post
    Damn you and your perfectly valid criticism!

  • #11
    diaglo's Avatar
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    1. Do progressives believe in a point of diminishing return with regards to regulatory complexity?
    1. not the ones i tend to mix with. all or nothing tends to be their take.

    2. Do you believe it a productive use of the justice system to incarcerate people for technical violations of the law? Should it be a felony to import improperly packaged lobsters or sell raw milk?
    for me, it would depend on the efficiency of the application and result. example: the school of the americas protest in columbus, ga that happens every year. there are arrests or people kicked off base. mostly they are quick, easy, and painless for both sides. both sides get their point across.

    raw milk or import of illegal fruit or improperly prepared animal hides or... these things can cause disease. when laws are put on the books there should be public hearings and assessments to what constitutes breaking the law and what the punishment or fine should be based on the result. so felony for raw milk? not hardly. fine for not posting, telling, or informing your customers of the risks. hell yeah.

  • Related to #2, is it justifiable to use armed police raids to issue arrest or search warrants for people who are suspected of breaking regulatory or health codes?
  • it is justifiable to be prepared as the situation warrants. armed police raids for waco, tejas for david koresh. yes. armed police raids for hot dog vendors not using the proper disposal drains for washing down their carts. hell no.

  • How do you feel about, ďaccidental entrapment?Ē By this Iím referring to what frequently happens (Iíve gotten bitten by it several times) when you actually try do the right thing & get the proper permits, but then run afoul of the law because either the official you asked didnít know what they were talking about, or because while you complied with government agency A you werenít aware that government agencies B or C have parallel enforcement.
  • run into this too. MiL got a ticket for parking in our driveway. her driver side tires were an inch onto our lawn. code enforcement had been called by other neighbors because the renters next door had abandoned a car in the cul de sac.

  • Progressives believe in individual the right to marriage equality, universal healthcare, adequate food, and housing. Do progressives believe in the right to earn a living as an individual?
  • you are getting into the populist vs progressives area.
  • Is it acceptable to you that in many of the examples shown, police arrested & incarcerated people falsely but generally suffered no consequences for it? Would you support removing civil litigation immunities from law enforcement in cases of abuse? (keep in mind by "law enforcement" I'm referring not only to cops, but prosecutors & bureaucrats with enforcement powers).
  • police and other enforcement are not above the law. it should be part of their training to know this, which it is mostly.
  • If prohibition of alcohol was such an utter failure, why do some progressives still believe in the prohibition of and illegal drugs? Why do most progressives believe that prohibition of things like prohibition of prostitution or "harmful" foods?
  • progressives are worried about outside consequences of introduction of the prohibit items. illegal import of plants and animals which are not natives to an area can cause devastation to the natives. rats introduction to the islands killing birds and tortoises. or kudzu (brought here on purpose) getting out of control. with no natural predators. or possible diseases being introduced or hidden when brought here. african bee. concrete eating termites. star fish in sf bay.
    prostitution worries similarly are about the diseases and conditions of the workers.


    diaglo "not really a progressive" Ooi
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  • #12
    Quote Originally Posted by diaglo View Post
    progressives are worried about outside consequences of introduction of the prohibit items. illegal import of plants and animals which are not natives to an area can cause devastation to the natives. rats introduction to the islands killing birds and tortoises. or kudzu (brought here on purpose) getting out of control. with no natural predators. or possible diseases being introduced or hidden when brought here. african bee. concrete eating termites. star fish in sf bay.
    Indeed my agency deals with tons of invasive plant and insect species (and to a much lesser extent, animal - that's Conservation), because Mobile is a major US port and all sorts of things flow out of there. Someone getting harassed because they brought in some kind of plant they thought was pretty on their vacation, so it gets confiscated and destroyed and they get treated like drug mules? That would be because of us.

    You can cry about the nanny/police state invasion of your right to Your Stuff, but Your Stuff can and does set off domino effects that lead to millions of dollars of lost timber sales, failed crops due to insects or parasites or diseases, and infected farm animals that have to be destroyed at a cost of more millions to you, the consumer.

    There are huge swaths of Alabama arable land or prime timber land that is worthless until expensive measures are taken to rid it of the stranglehold some invasive species have on it.

  • #13
    First Day On The Internet Calamari Face's Avatar
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    Jeez, Wayne, it almost sounds like there are such things as negative externalities.

    For God's sake, don't tell the Libertarians!



    I don't think CF and I agree on much at all, and probably not this. -- Ovinomancer, The Senate, 28 June 2011

    I find myself in full agreement with CF. -- Ovinomancer, The Senate, 1 July 2011


    Larry Sanders 2016!

  • #14
    Quote Originally Posted by WayneLigon View Post
    You can cry about the nanny/police state invasion of your right to Your Stuff, but Your Stuff can and does set off domino effects that lead to millions of dollars of lost timber sales, failed crops due to insects or parasites or diseases, and infected farm animals that have to be destroyed at a cost of more millions to you, the consumer.
    And that's only dealing with environmental issue. Wait for the cost of an health disaster, because someone brought back the wrong mosquito in Florida...

  • #15
    diaglo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aloysius View Post
    And that's only dealing with environmental issue. Wait for the cost of an health disaster, because someone brought back the wrong mosquito in Florida...
    go to a bowling alley. bowling alley X will not allow outside food. b/c of insurance. b/c if someone gets sick. since they need to be able to track the cause of potential illness. and the contacts. people bitch and say it is b/c bowling alley X wants to sell jacked up priced food and drinks.

    replace bowling alley with movie cinema.
    FWIW, I'm on the design team and I pretty much find WoW as fun and interesting as banging my head against a brick wall.-- Mike Mearls

    I mean, I never GET any but that would be preferable. --Rel

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