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Thread: 75% of Likely Voters want LOWER tax on Wealthy

  1. #46
    First Day On The Internet Calamari Face's Avatar
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    I found it! I found it!

    But first...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Charlemagne View Post
    I'm not sure I understand this position. I can kind of understand the idea behind eliminating things like mortgage deductions. Not quite as clear on why it would be a good idea to eliminate deductions for things like charitable giving.
    Why does the debate around mortgage interest deductions always take on this strange binary where we either allow a deduction of all mortgage interest, including that which accrues on multi-million dollar homes, or doing away with it entirely?

    How about simply capping it? The 1040 already has plenty of lines like "write the answer from row 46b or $5,000, whichever is less."

    Law. Excluded middle.

    But back to the matter at hand.

    But here's where it gets to the point of splitting hairs: If you want to reduce taxes to help businesses, that is also "shaping behavior." My point being that any change at all in the tax code will shape behavior. Any tax at all will shape behavior. There's no way of avoiding the shaping of behavior, so where do you draw the line?
    And here's where John Stuart Mill and economists since then, ride to the rescue!

    Enter the positional good!

    Quote Originally Posted by Calamari Face View Post
    I did recently stumble across some interesting stuff going back to J.S. Mill (and still borne out by contemporary research, apparently) about the surprisingly limited capacity of taxes to shape behavior.

    Apparently crude intuition fails here, and sometimes--depending on the economic good in question--taxation levels afford startlingly little incentive or detriment.

    I'll dig up the source if someone actually cares...
    Quote Originally Posted by dar View Post
    I'd like to see it. Not because I think you need to cite, but because I'm interested.
    I don't mind the trouble. It was interesting enough to me that I should have bookmarked it in the first place (what's one more in that damn "Politics & Econ" folder? ).

    Here's J. S. Mill in his Principles of Political Economy, writing in 1848, back when "political economy" simply meant "economics":

    Quote Originally Posted by J. S. Mill
    What remain are taxes on luxuries. And these have some properties which strongly recommend them.... for in so far as taxes are levied on things which are desired and possessed from motives of this description ["as an appendage of station"], nobody is the worse for them. When a thing is bought not for its use but for its costliness, cheapness is no recommendation. As Sismondi remarks, the consequence of cheapening articles of vanity, is not that less is expended on such things, but that the buyers substitute for the cheapened article some other which is more costly, or a more elaborate quality of the same thing; and as the inferior quality answered the purpose of vanity equally well when it was equally expensive, a tax on the article is really paid by nobody: it is a creation of public revenue by which nobody loses." (book 5, chapter 6)
    Since then, a broader theory has arisen to describe things like this, called "positional goods". This appears to be a pretty mainstream economic concept, and even right-wing Chicago guys like Gary Becker (of Becker-Posner blog fame) have done some important work in the field, I gather.

    (Do some reading on this and you'll see that Thorstein Veblen comes up again, which is one reason it was so damn hard for me to find this. I keep running into that guy...)

    And, as a postscript:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ovi
    I didn't discount or dismiss your mention of a source. I fully believe you can present the relevant cite upon request, and that it will largely match your summation. That you can find an economist preaching your viewpoints
    What viewpoints? I'm skeptical of your blanket generalizations and hand-wavy simplifications, and not surprised to find that we had deeper ways to think about economic problems 150 years ago.

    is an equally exciting as me presenting a different economist preaching a differing viewpoint -- which is not at all. I wasn't, at any point, discussing your discovery, or resultant awe, at finding a scholarly paper with which you agree.
    I'm a student of this stuff, not an expert. I enjoy learning useful new things. Your overreaching presumptions are...how does one put it? Ah, yes. "Small-minded and nasty."
    Last edited by Calamari Face; March 1st, 2012 at 08:10 PM. Reason: dumbass typo



    I don't think CF and I agree on much at all, and probably not this. -- Ovinomancer, The Senate, 28 June 2011

    I find myself in full agreement with CF. -- Ovinomancer, The Senate, 1 July 2011


    Larry Sanders 2016!

 

  • #47
    Pony Up! Ovinomancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calamari Face View Post
    Your overreaching presumptions are...how does one put it? Ah, yes. "Small-minded and nasty."
    Case in point.
    Quote Originally Posted by PWD View Post
    I think ovi's right.

  • #48
    First Day On The Internet Calamari Face's Avatar
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    You either have a lot more self-awareness than most people, or a lot less.



    I don't think CF and I agree on much at all, and probably not this. -- Ovinomancer, The Senate, 28 June 2011

    I find myself in full agreement with CF. -- Ovinomancer, The Senate, 1 July 2011


    Larry Sanders 2016!

  • #49
    Pony Up! Ovinomancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calamari Face View Post
    You either have a lot more self-awareness than most people, or a lot less.
    Excluded middle fallacy?
    Quote Originally Posted by PWD View Post
    I think ovi's right.

  • #50
    56% of an excuse nail bunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ovinomancer View Post
    Excluded middle fallacy?
    Always.
    I can delete you, one click and you're overwritten.

  • #51
    First Day On The Internet Calamari Face's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ovinomancer View Post
    Excluded middle fallacy?
    You really don't know how that works, do you?

    |x| > 3 for x in the reals

    does not, in any conceivable way, posit that real values in the interval [-3,3] do not exist.



    I don't think CF and I agree on much at all, and probably not this. -- Ovinomancer, The Senate, 28 June 2011

    I find myself in full agreement with CF. -- Ovinomancer, The Senate, 1 July 2011


    Larry Sanders 2016!

  • #52
    EVOLVED: I'm an iguana! dar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calamari Face View Post
    I found it! I found it!
    Thanks! Coverage needed!

  • #53
    I'll be king someday! The It's Man's Avatar
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by Enkhidu View Post
    Where do you stand on sin taxes?
    Tax on Thingy?
    Lemon curry?

  • #54
    Ready to STFU? Call me. fusangite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ovinomancer View Post
    Now I'm all a tenterhooks to see the linkback from insurance to taxes.
    I think Enk just turned Canadian.
    "The work is slow. The ape is old." - Leonard Cohen

  • #55
    First Day On The Internet Calamari Face's Avatar
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    Paging the Vapors!

    Vapors, meme on aisle 3!

    Spoiler:

    [ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gEmJ-VWPDM4"]The Vapors - Turning Japanese - YouTube[/ame]



    I don't think CF and I agree on much at all, and probably not this. -- Ovinomancer, The Senate, 28 June 2011

    I find myself in full agreement with CF. -- Ovinomancer, The Senate, 1 July 2011


    Larry Sanders 2016!

  • #56
    Ready to STFU? Call me. fusangite's Avatar
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    I prefer the Kirsten Dunst version.
    "The work is slow. The ape is old." - Leonard Cohen

  • #57
    First Day On The Internet Calamari Face's Avatar
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    Does she perform it without opening her mouth?



    I don't think CF and I agree on much at all, and probably not this. -- Ovinomancer, The Senate, 28 June 2011

    I find myself in full agreement with CF. -- Ovinomancer, The Senate, 1 July 2011


    Larry Sanders 2016!

  • #58
    Ready to STFU? Call me. fusangite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calamari Face View Post
    Does she perform it without opening her mouth?
    She opens her mouth but it's heavily dubbed/lip-synced.

    But it's Kirsten Dunst wearing ridiculous clothes singing about masturbation. Watch it on mute if you have to and chant the words to yourself.
    "The work is slow. The ape is old." - Leonard Cohen

  • #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Ovinomancer View Post
    Case in point.
    Saying it fucking right +rep inbound.

    Fuck, apparently I gotta spread it around, like your mother.
    Quote Originally Posted by nail bunny View Post
    I believe the hammer locking back is PWD's trigger warning.

  • #60
    First Day On The Internet Calamari Face's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fusangite View Post
    She opens her mouth but it's heavily dubbed/lip-synced.
    It's not the voice. It's the granite quarry tailings she has for teeth.

    But it's Kirsten Dunst wearing ridiculous clothes singing about masturbation. Watch it on mute if you have to and chant the words to yourself.
    I may have enough imagination to pretend she didn't have an orthodontist that said, "ah, fuck it."

    I accept your challenge. In the name of sc---well, prurience, anyway.



    I don't think CF and I agree on much at all, and probably not this. -- Ovinomancer, The Senate, 28 June 2011

    I find myself in full agreement with CF. -- Ovinomancer, The Senate, 1 July 2011


    Larry Sanders 2016!

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