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Thread: D&D is Drunk Calling Pathfinder's Friends

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    Kicked out of the CDB Marcus Americus's Avatar
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    D&D is Drunk Calling Pathfinder's Friends

    http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=232590

    It's amazing. I don't think the thread would be this long if it were during business hours; A co-worker would have cut this off at some point. It's like when someone breaks up with their SO then goes around trying to talk their mutual friends into abandoning the SO and the places they all use to hang out together. Kinda sad.

 

  • #2
    Suspicious and Dangerous! COMMUNITY SUPPORTER Diehard Murphy's Avatar
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    Man...poor Mearls

    I'm sure all that stuff sounded good in his head, but When Darrin Drader and Mark Clover started in, he started looking awfully, well, whiny
    Know Murphy,
    No Peace.

    No Murphy,
    Know Peace.

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    spine crushing lover Henricus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marcus Americus View Post
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    It's like when someone breaks up with their SO then goes around trying to talk their mutual friends into abandoning the SO and the places they all use to hang out together. Kinda sad.
    ??? I'm not seeing it here. So far Mearls is talking about the community doing EXACTLY what it's doing right now, since the GSL's release: collaborating even more than they ever did, in the face of a perceived oppressor. With the GSL looming, the OGL crowd is more likely to band together now than it ever has been -- which is a good thing, if it continues.
    "I learned a long time ago, Reuven, that a blink of an eye in itself is nothing. But the eye that blinks, that is something. A span of life is nothing. But the man who lives that span, he is something. He can fill that tiny span with meaning, so its quality is immeasurable though its quantity may be insignificant. Do you understand what I am saying? A man must fill his life with meaning, meaning is not automatically given to life."

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    Lieutenant Dummy Stupid-Butt Ftumch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mearl
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    I imagine that the venomous rage has been in part fed by people who serve as opinion leaders for some portions of the audience.
    Classy.
    ---In real life, vampires only sparkle when they're on fire.

  • #5
    needs a break from stripping Kerrick's Avatar
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    The GSL is a system license designed to allow publishers to profit by producing D&D compatible products. Its benefits and drawbacks are irrelevant to open source development. It occupies the same space as the d20 license. The d20 license was also irrelevant to open source development.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mearls is saying:

    The GSL occupies the same space as the d20 STL. The d20 STL was irrelevant to open source development.

    Conclusion: The GSL is irrelevant to open source development. Sounds about right to me!

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    Kicked out of the CDB Marcus Americus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Henricus View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member.
    (. . .) collaborating even more than they ever did (. . .)

    They/We already are, just not in a single forum as he seems to suggest is the one true solution. Maybe he has been so out of touch with all the things that various groups and publishers are doing due to hunkering down with 4E that he things he needs to step in and save us all. He seems to also be suffering from a fear that Pathfinder's success spells an end to anyone else's efforts to produce OGC, which is ridiculous.

  • #7
    Hot for Teacher COMMUNITY SUPPORTER Rainbow Poet's Avatar
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    Mearls loves to say weird shit then try to back it up, and then move on while other people argue and fight.

    He would have been the perfect Nothinglander.
    "All sparkly & dark at the same time. Sort of like twilight flavored rainbows with a hint of razorblades." --Kwyjibo, in JC's head

  • #8
    let them eat arugula! Vigilance's Avatar
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    The level of collaboration was always greater than people like Mearls gave it credit for.

    First, there is iterative design going on, no matter what he says. People are writing adventures and supplements (pro or amateur) for: D&D, Mutants and Masterminds, True 20, Iron Heroes, Arcana Evolved and d20 Modern.

    Second, there's a lot of conversation about those systems and how they affect the design space.

    Look at books like Thieves' World and Conan, now compare those books to earlier d20 variants like Sovereign Stone.

    There's clearly been growth, evolution, and even iterative design (since the Thieves' World book uses the Sovereign Stone magic system).

  • #9
    Hot for Teacher COMMUNITY SUPPORTER Rainbow Poet's Avatar
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    Mearls is also overstating the level of awareness of OGL games at WotC. That awareness might exist now, although I doubt it outside of Mearls, but it certainly did not exist between 2001 and 2008. In fact, WotC actively maintained an ivory tower approach (that was probably necessitated by their Byzantine R&D process). The only reason they were aware of Iron Heroes is because it was published by Monte Cook.
    "All sparkly & dark at the same time. Sort of like twilight flavored rainbows with a hint of razorblades." --Kwyjibo, in JC's head

  • #10
    Grumpy Old Man francisca's Avatar
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    I also don't buy that a goal of the "open game system" was to support "the community". It was spelled out at the time. PHBs were the only thing making money. Let other people make adventures, etc.., so WotC could sell more PHBs. It *was* about a publisher making money. If WotC/Dancey/Adkison did not think it would make them money, they never would have done it. Of course the flaw in the business model was that once the market is saturated with PHBs (and you post 95% of it via the SRD anyway, for free), the only way to keep making money is to diversify into other, lower (if any) margin products or, launch a new edition (or a half edition).

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    let them eat arugula! Vigilance's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wil_Upchurch View Post
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    Mearls is also overstating the level of awareness of OGL games at WotC. That awareness might exist now, although I doubt it outside of Mearls, but it certainly did not exist between 2001 and 2008. In fact, WotC actively maintained an ivory tower approach (that was probably necessitated by their Byzantine R&D process). The only reason they were aware of Iron Heroes is because it was published by Monte Cook.
    Yeah, if Arcana Unearthed is any example, there was ONE piece of OGC created by a non-Wizards staffer (current or former) that they noticed: Kenson's Damage Save.

  • #12
    Bleeding assheart Garnfellow's Avatar
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    Wow. That was bizarre.

    Mearls is a strange case: there's no one who can more cogently break down a design problem into its essential elements and come up with an innovative solution. I'd read his thoughts on design all day long.

    And yet, he completely loses me with these posts. Not only is he incoherent and unconvincing, I'm not sure I understand what he's really driving at: Is he trying to justify his company's awful GSL? Is he trying to slag Paizo for daring to make money with the OGL? I dunno.

    And now he's off to Origins, so I doubt we'll ever get any clarifications as to any of this.

  • #13
    chaste little tart der_kluge's Avatar
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    I'm with Garnfellow here. Apparently, my reading comprehension is made of fail. I couldn't really understand that thread. At first, it was like Mearls was arguing in defense of the GSL, and then later on it was like he was advocating that the masses rise up and defenestrate WoTC.

    The whole thing left me shaking in the fetal position in the corner of my computer room in confusion.

  • #14
    Bleeding assheart Garnfellow's Avatar
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    I re-read a couple of his posts this morning, hoping they would make more sense . . . and they don't.

    What the hell is this Utopian "community" he keeps yammering on about? And his posts are crippled by vagueness because he isn't naming names: is he really writing about Paizo? If so, he might as well sack up and state this outright, since he's already failed his saving throw vs. Tactlessness.

    Ladies and gentlemen, what we seem to have here is classic case of cognitive dissonance.

    So Mike is on record as being a long and ardent supporter of the OGL. He is also on record as disdaining third party publishers (despite their long history of, well, being instrumental to his professional success). And he is on record as like, totally loving his masters at super fun happy WotC. So finally, you add in the GSL, which is a sucktastic license expressly designed to kill OGL. Put this all together and it seems to be breaking his mind trying to reconcile these four things logically.

    Wizards good . . . OGL good . . . third party publishers bad . . . GSL . . . bad . . . Wizards made GSL . . . GSL hurts OGL . . . Wizards good? . . . recalculating . . . third party publishers bad . . . GSL . . does not compute . . . does not compute . . .

    This is just like the time Kirk completely fucked that AI by ordering it to calculate Pi. In your face, super computer!
    Last edited by Garnfellow; June 23rd, 2008 at 10:52 AM.

  • #15
    prod me! Holy Bovine's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garnfellow View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member.
    This is just like the time Kirk completely fucked that AI by ordering it to calculate Pi. In your face, super computer!

    That was Spock.








    Retard.
    “There is no intimacy; it’s not live,” he said of online games. “It’s being translated through a computer, and your imagination is not there the same way it is when you’re actually together with a group of people. It reminds me of one time where I saw some children talking about whether they liked radio or television, and I asked one little boy why he preferred radio, and he said, ‘Because the pictures are so much better.’ ” - E.G.Gygax 1938-2008

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