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Thread: #Treason

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    #Treason

    Today in Helsinki Trump committed treason. There's really no other description for what he did in dismissing the US intelligence agencies, the Intelligence committees of both wings of Congress, and taking Putin's word above all of this. He has given aid and comfort to Putin.

    The GOP is grumbling about it. Those who aren't in office have started calling this #treason as well, including no less than the CIA director under George W Bush.

    Oh well. I have no faith Congress will act. Hopefully the Secret Service will honor their oath to defend the Constitution.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHCgjmueEgY

    Then again, I don't want to see him become a martyr for Tea Party.

    Anyway, this is no longer an issue of Democrat vs. Republican. This is Patriot vs. Traitor. Which are you?

 

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    The Trump apology tour. Remember when Republicans screamed at Obama for less? No you do not cause you're useful idiots.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoony View Post
    Today in Helsinki Trump committed treason. There's really no other description for what he did in dismissing the US intelligence agencies, the Intelligence committees of both wings of Congress, and taking Putin's word above all of this. He has given aid and comfort to Putin.

    The GOP is grumbling about it. Those who aren't in office have started calling this #treason as well, including no less than the CIA director under George W Bush.

    Oh well. I have no faith Congress will act. Hopefully the Secret Service will honor their oath to defend the Constitution.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHCgjmueEgY

    Then again, I don't want to see him become a martyr for Tea Party.

    Anyway, this is no longer an issue of Democrat vs. Republican. This is Patriot vs. Traitor. Which are you?
    This is like when folks say "if you're not with us, then by this logic I've decided is sound, you're a Nazi. This also allows me to punch you."
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    What would Reagan do about the invasion of Crimea? What would he do about Putin's use of a nerve agent on British Soil? What would he say about 11 Russian agents spreading propaganda in the US to sway an election? Would he take Putin's side like Trump? #treason

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    That's Wacist! Mistwell's Avatar
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    1) To commit treason it must be in aid of an "enemy" of the U.S., which under the Statute and case law requires one of either a) a declaration of war, or b) a Congressional authorization for use of force against the nation or group you were aiding. As Russia does not qualify as an "enemy" right now, you literally cannot commit treason in aid of Russia right now, though of course you can commit lesser crimes like espionage, etc..

    2) Mere words, which fall short of intentionally revealing state secrets or something akin to that, cannot be considered in itself "treason". No matter how stupid, unhelpful, ridiculous, angering, counter productive, or annoying they might be. "Aid and comfort" meant things like hiding an enemy soldier in your house while the military was out looking for them - not making the enemy feel goods by using encouraging words which are at your own nations expense. A president is as free to disagree in his stated opinion with the U.S. intelligence agencies and agree in his speech with the opinion of a foreign leader, as you or I. We can impeach the President for it (we can impeach a President for pretty much anything) but it's not in itself illegal, much less treason.

    The only time in history where we've actually convicted someone of treason for words was the Tokyo Rose case. And she was working for a declared enemy, paid by them, on a daily basis for years, directly against U.S. troops during war. And even then, she got a pardon.

    This isn't treason. It's just really quite stupid. I agree for the most part with Speaker Ryan on this:

    “There is no question that Russia interfered in our election and continues attempts to undermine democracy here and around the world,” Mr. Ryan said. “That is not just the finding of the American intelligence community but also the House Committee on Intelligence. The president must appreciate that Russia is not our ally. There is no moral equivalence between the United States and Russia, which remains hostile to our most basic values and ideals. The United States must be focused on holding Russia accountable and putting an end to its vile attacks on democracy.”
    Last edited by Mistwell; July 16th, 2018 at 10:24 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoony View Post
    What would Reagan do about the invasion of Crimea? What would he do about Putin's use of a nerve agent on British Soil? What would he say about 11 Russian agents spreading propaganda in the US to sway an election? Would he take Putin's side like Trump? #treason
    This is my point - political difference do not make one treasonous.

    You are truly unhinged at this point...
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    Trump was impressively stupid today.

    Then, Spoony said, "hold my beer."
    Quote Originally Posted by PWD View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member.
    I think ovi's right.

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    Girls Gone Spoony! Spoony's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistwell View Post
    1) To commit treason it must be in aid of an "enemy" of the U.S., which under the Statute and case law requires one of either a) a declaration of war,
    Damn, you're bending over so far backward to defend and endorse Trump's behavior that I can hear your spinal column crack. Quips aside, you've just raised the bar so high as to make the term meaningless. After all, less than 10 of the wars in US history actually went through the declaration process.



    or b) a Congressional authorization for use of force against the nation or group you were aiding.
    SAC: Mr. President, we have warheads incoming.

    Yeah, I don't think he's waiting for the authorization.

    As Russia does not qualify as an "enemy" right now, you literally cannot commit treason in aid of Russia right now, though of course you can commit lesser crimes like espionage, etc..
    You know what, I'm done. I'm not reading the rest. FUCK YOU. You think naked self evident treason is ok? FUCK YOU. Go to Hell. You and Pala were the last persons here I have any respect for and want to hear from, and you - Go to Hell. This isn't ok Misty. You've staked out your position and like any good lawyer you're gonna defend it like a pitbull no matter how wrong you are. Never give up. Never give ground. Never admit you're wrong. I'm better than you because I at least have done that much - you can't. You very obviously can't.


    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    This is my point - political difference do not make one treasonous.

    You are truly unhinged at this point...
    This is why I'm leaving. Nothing I say is respected or taken seriously. So Feanor, suck Trump's dick then give a blowjob to a .45. The world will be a better place once you're dead.

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    Pony Up! Ovinomancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoony View Post
    Damn, you're bending over so far backward to defend and endorse Trump's behavior that I can hear your spinal column crack. Quips aside, you've just raised the bar so high as to make the term meaningless. After all, less than 10 of the wars in US history actually went through the declaration process.





    SAC: Mr. President, we have warheads incoming.

    Yeah, I don't think he's waiting for the authorization.



    You know what, I'm done. I'm not reading the rest. FUCK YOU. You think naked self evident treason is ok? FUCK YOU. Go to Hell. You and Pala were the last persons here I have any respect for and want to hear from, and you - Go to Hell. This isn't ok Misty. You've staked out your position and like any good lawyer you're gonna defend it like a pitbull no matter how wrong you are. Never give up. Never give ground. Never admit you're wrong. I'm better than you because I at least have done that much - you can't. You very obviously can't.




    This is why I'm leaving. Nothing I say is respected or taken seriously. So Feanor, suck Trump's dick then give a blowjob to a .45. The world will be a better place once you're dead.
    Yes, you arent taken seriously, but that's because you're batshit crazy at this point. And, instead of listening, you're declaring that everyone else the problem. You're the common denominator Spoony.
    Quote Originally Posted by PWD View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member.
    I think ovi's right.

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    That's Wacist! Mistwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoony View Post
    You know what, I'm done. I'm not reading the rest. FUCK YOU. You think naked self evident treason is ok? FUCK YOU. Go to Hell. You and Pala were the last persons here I have any respect for and want to hear from, and you - Go to Hell. This isn't ok Misty. You've staked out your position and like any good lawyer you're gonna defend it like a pitbull no matter how wrong you are. Never give up. Never give ground. Never admit you're wrong. I'm better than you because I at least have done that much - you can't. You very obviously can't.




    This is why I'm leaving. Nothing I say is respected or taken seriously. So Feanor, suck Trump's dick then give a blowjob to a .45. The world will be a better place once you're dead.
    I'm sorry you feel that way Spoony. Know that I do respect your opinions and take them seriously. It's why I reply to them, frequently in fact. Notice I don't reply to some other people here, like Yablo.

    But hey man, if you need a break, I get that. These are dark times. You and I have more in common then we have differences when it comes to politics. It's just that simply agreeing with the parts I agree with doesn't make for much conversation. So I focus on the parts I disagree with.
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  • #11
    I've been listening to the right-wing insist for almost 30 years that Bill Clinton committed treason for participating in overseas campus anti-Vietnam protests in 1969. My Dad still will bring it up now and then. Yet when Trump....


    A small reminder, since I am sure at least a couple of the right-wingers will deny this. Speaking of which, the goal-post moving and flip-flopping these days is insane (this is spite of my long held assertion that being able to change one's mind is a sign of maturity - in this case, it is vile.)

    https://www.nytimes.com/1992/10/08/u...-protests.html

    THE 1992 CAMPAIGN: The Republicans; Bush Questions Clinton's Account Of Vietnam-Era Protests and Trip

  • #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Mistwell View Post
    1) To commit treason it must be in aid of an "enemy" of the U.S., which under the Statute and case law requires one of either a) a declaration of war, or b) a Congressional authorization for use of force against the nation or group you were aiding. As Russia does not qualify as an "enemy" right now, you literally cannot commit treason in aid of Russia right now, though of course you can commit lesser crimes like espionage, etc..

    2) Mere words, which fall short of intentionally revealing state secrets or something akin to that, cannot be considered in itself "treason". No matter how stupid, unhelpful, ridiculous, angering, counter productive, or annoying they might be. "Aid and comfort" meant things like hiding an enemy soldier in your house while the military was out looking for them - not making the enemy feel goods by using encouraging words which are at your own nations expense. A president is as free to disagree in his stated opinion with the U.S. intelligence agencies and agree in his speech with the opinion of a foreign leader, as you or I. We can impeach the President for it (we can impeach a President for pretty much anything) but it's not in itself illegal, much less treason.

    The only time in history where we've actually convicted someone of treason for words was the Tokyo Rose case. And she was working for a declared enemy, paid by them, on a daily basis for years, directly against U.S. troops during war. And even then, she got a pardon.

    This isn't treason. It's just really quite stupid. I agree for the most part with Speaker Ryan on this:

    “There is no question that Russia interfered in our election and continues attempts to undermine democracy here and around the world,” Mr. Ryan said. “That is not just the finding of the American intelligence community but also the House Committee on Intelligence. The president must appreciate that Russia is not our ally. There is no moral equivalence between the United States and Russia, which remains hostile to our most basic values and ideals. The United States must be focused on holding Russia accountable and putting an end to its vile attacks on democracy.”
    This.

  • #13
    That's Wacist! Mistwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farside View Post
    I've been listening to the right-wing insist for almost 30 years that Bill Clinton committed treason for participating in overseas campus anti-Vietnam protests in 1969. My Dad still will bring it up now and then. Yet when Trump....
    I don't even recall this "controversy" and can't recall anyone ever even bringing it up. I have however heard my own dad call Jane Fonda's picture of her on a north Viet Nam anti-aircraft gun treason. And I've always disagreed with him on that topic too.
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    self admitted prolifer kirinke's Avatar
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    Personally, I don't think it amounts to treason. We aren't exactly at war with Russia after all. Now high crimes and misdemenors? Maaybe. IF you squint and look hard at it and got a sympathetic Senate and House who will step up to the plate and swing, which we don't right now. At best, I'd just wait for Mueller to get done with his investigation and add this instance to the pile.

    By the time it's done, there will be enough to impeach Trump. Right now? It's not enough and with the current mood, it's not going to happen. And yes, I loathe and hate the man, but even I can see the reality of the situation.

    It's still a stupid, stupid, stupid thing to do.

    God, I hate being a voice of reason...
    Last edited by kirinke; July 17th, 2018 at 01:29 AM.
    Madness does not always howl. Sometimes, it is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, "Hey, is there room in your head for one more?"

    I is before E except after C, then it's chaos man, mass chaos! Letters coming together into words, but then you go English and they put U's in places that just shouldn't go there... AHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

    My sanity left town along time ago and didn't leave a forwarding address. It's not missed.

  • #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Mistwell View Post
    I don't even recall this "controversy" and can't recall anyone ever even bringing it up. I have however heard my own dad call Jane Fonda's picture of her on a north Viet Nam anti-aircraft gun treason. And I've always disagreed with him on that topic too.
    It dominated the airwaves for a good part of the 90s, before Starr and to a smaller degree after. You either were not listening, or have selective memory, or were a child then. (I have no clue how old you are, so I will assume you were either a kid then, or the second, or a third option, which is you are lying. It was everywhere.)

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