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Thread: I'M COMING TO TAKE ALL YOUR GUNS AWAY AMERICA!

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    Friendly Coffee Kzach's Avatar
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    I'M COMING TO TAKE ALL YOUR GUNS AWAY AMERICA!

    The Futility of Trying to Prevent More School Shootings

    As long as there is easy access to guns, there’s no way parents, teachers, and other specialists can thwart every violent teenager.

    The 17-year-old who killed 10 people at Santa Fe High School, in Texas, allegedly used his father’s shotgun and .38 revolver. After a firefight with police, he surrendered, saying he did not have the courage to kill himself, as he had planned, Governor Greg Abbott told reporters.

    In the hours after the May 18 attack, some students were shocked that Dimitrios Pagourtzis felled his classmates and two substitute teachers with buckshot. He played defensive tackle on the football team. He made honor roll. He is not known to have a criminal record, according to Abbott. Just the day before, he had been joking around with friends on a field trip to a waterpark. Others found him disturbing, often wearing a trench coat, said his classmates, and, on that day, a black T-shirt with the haunting message: born to kill.

    Details are only beginning to emerge about the gunman, and now it seems he kept his plans to himself, described in his personal journal. This would be unusual. In many of the other 21 (by CNN’s count) school shootings this year, there were clues to what would come to pass, to varying degrees. Typically, someone—a parent, a classmate, a teacher, a neighbor—had a hunch as to what would happen. Sometimes it was clear the child was mentally ill. Sometimes he had overtly displayed psychopathic traits. Sometimes other students steered clear of that particular boy at lunch in the hallway, because he was just plain scary. As Mary Ellen O’Toole, a retired FBI agent who’s an expert on school shootings, notes: “They never come out of the blue.”
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    That's Wacist! Mistwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kzach View Post
    [CENTER]The Futility of Trying to Prevent More School Shootings

    As long as there is easy access to guns, there’s no way parents, teachers, and other specialists can thwart every violent teenager.
    You don't have to thwart "every" violent teenager. And taking away guns wouldn't thwart "every" violent teenager anyway. As seen with this very example, as this kid also used homemade pipe bombs from ordinary household items. But, you CAN try and reduce the number of them. You know...like all crimes?

    I would note Australia just had a mass shooting despite their gun ban. In fact a recent study there showed that there was no significant changes in gun-related homicides in the country due to the gun ban and by 2016 gun-related crimes in Melbourne have doubled over the previous five years. Mass shootings and suicides by use of a gun however have declined...though obviously it's still a problem as was just seen.
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  • #3
    We don't need fewer guns, we need fewer doors!

    Because what we really need in the inevitable active shooter situation is a lack of escape routes.
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    56% of an excuse nail bunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistwell View Post
    I would note Australia just had a mass shooting despite their gun ban.
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    Pony Up! Ovinomancer's Avatar
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    Apparently, the media has learned that if you put buckshot in a shotgun it gets way more lethal than if you used regular shotgun bullets.
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    I think ovi's right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Charlemagne View Post
    We don't need fewer guns, we need fewer doors!

    Because what we really need in the inevitable active shooter situation is a lack of escape routes.
    I don't know if you have kids, KC...or if they are in high school.

    As anecdotal as it is, I'll share my experience of having two kids in High School (one about to finish sophomore year and one finishing junior year).

    There are too many doors.

    There are at least 4 doors open at the start of the school day. Two are the main entrances - one the 'Athletic/Auditorium' entrance, the other the 'Main' entrance. While there are teachers and administration out front most days greeting the kids, as far as I've been able to glean from conversations with my spawn, there is only one "resource officer" at the main entrance. That leaves three other doors that are essentially unobserved.

    I'm not sure why this is the case. It seems pretty logical to me that a first step would be to make the kids walk around the school (or get dropped off closer to the two main entrances) and use either the Main or Auditorium entrance. Close the back entrances and use them only as egress in case of emergency. Step 2 would be to put at least one active resource officer at each of those two entrances, perhaps augmented by at least one other staff. Train those folks in how to recognize hinky shit going on (like wearing a trench coat on an 80 degree day).

    These are not onerous requests - I'd bet not one parent would balk at the changes.

    If people are still concerned we can talk about metal detectors and shit like that. But my point is there are some pretty simple and logical things to do to cut down on accessibility for those intending to do harm. Will it stop everything? Not in a million years. But it seems to me to be at least as, if not infinitely more, logical as talking about Australia/England type gun confiscation.

    And lest I be labeled as some kind of "any gun law is a violation of my rights" kind of person, I'm supportive of the bills in the Illinois legislature - including the addenda by Democrats - (as I understand them) that require a minimum three day waiting period for any gun purchase, increased background checks, etc. (though I still don't like the no-fly list stuff as it lacks enough due process for my tastes).

    There's a conversation to be had here - and it includes common sense approaches from both sides of the problem.


    ETA: And to us this shit is real - they already removed a kid this year because it seemed he might be on the verge. My son knew him and he often talked openly about all of his guns and he was bullied relentlessly. It apparently got to the point of requiring an intervention.
    Last edited by Feanor; May 22nd, 2018 at 02:05 PM.
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  • #7
    That's a fair point, Feanor, and I appreciate the perspective. The one thing that I really would like to see is some sort of gun buyback program to get all the extra guns away - there's just way too many guns. It can be voluntary, just to get the sheer number of weapons off the market. I'd also like to see background checks and waiting periods and buying rules be more uniform across the nation. I'm sure you know this because you're in the Chicago area like me, but Illinois' gun laws can be as restrictive as we want, and it really won't matter - because Chicago is right on the Indiana border and their rules are among the most lax in the nation.
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  • #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Mistwell View Post
    You don't have to thwart "every" violent teenager. And taking away guns wouldn't thwart "every" violent teenager anyway. As seen with this very example, as this kid also used homemade pipe bombs from ordinary household items. But, you CAN try and reduce the number of them. You know...like all crimes?

    I would note Australia just had a mass shooting despite their gun ban. In fact a recent study there showed that there was no significant changes in gun-related homicides in the country due to the gun ban and by 2016 gun-related crimes in Melbourne have doubled over the previous five years. Mass shootings and suicides by use of a gun however have declined...though obviously it's still a problem as was just seen.
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    I want watermelon! Bagpuss's Avatar
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    Well someone needs to come and take your guns away it's clear that you don't know how to play nice with them.
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    Damn you and your perfectly valid criticism!

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    56% of an excuse nail bunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Charlemagne View Post
    We don't need fewer guns, we need fewer doors!
    Cominf back to this to spring board off of Feanor...

    I went to two high schools here in Florida... there is no way to police what is brought into a school.

    Both were lousy in terms of security. One was built in the typical 'Florida' style*, so no 'main buildings' all classrooms opened onto courtyards with 4+ open walkways (or just opened onto the fields surrounding the school). While there was a 'singular entrance' to the school (as a whole) it was more of a 'grand plaza' style with the parking lot, admin building, and cafeteria bounding it and then the rest of the school sprawled around them like a messy teen's room.

    The second (and more affluent) school was more like northern schools, a singular building (the cafeteria, theatre, and gymnasium were separate buildings), but it had three wings, each with their own entrance/exit, and two 'main entrances' (one front and one back)... and then there were multiple emergency doors dotted around the wings (next to bathrooms, the teacher's lounge, in a few classrooms)... so it was almost as hard to secure as the previous school.

    The only difference between the schools as far as weapons that were brought onto campus? The poor school made the papers every time, the rich school was never reported as having any problems...


    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Charlemagne View Post
    The one thing that I really would like to see is some sort of gun buyback program to get all the extra guns away...
    We have those every few years here in different counties in Florida... doesn't seem to make much of a difference.
    Last edited by nail bunny; May 22nd, 2018 at 08:46 PM.
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  • #11
    Quote Originally Posted by nail bunny View Post
    We have those every few years here in different counties in Florida... doesn't seem to make much of a difference.
    It would definitely have to be a nationwide program, with some serious funding, in order to make a dent. Otherwise its like a bucket on the Titanic.

    Vox had a good article on reasons for optimism on gun control - the point they made that resonated is that because of the USA's governmental structure, most of heavy lifting will need to be done at the local levels, and there's some evidence that is happening. A lot of people will get shot before we get there, wherever "there" is. The trend of killings is downward, even as it is still vastly higher than anywhere else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Charlemagne View Post
    It would definitely have to be a nationwide program, with some serious funding, in order to make a dent. Otherwise its like a bucket on the Titanic.

    Vox had a good article on reasons for optimism on gun control - the point they made that resonated is that because of the USA's governmental structure, most of heavy lifting will need to be done at the local levels, and there's some evidence that is happening. A lot of people will get shot before we get there, wherever "there" is. The trend of killings is downward, even as it is still vastly higher than anywhere else.
    Gun buybacks aren't effective at all -- they show zero impact. If it was effective at all, you'd see at least some impact at the smaller scale. I'm struggling to think of anything that magically becomes effective at massive scales that can't show any impact at smaller scales.

    Also, Vox doesn't have good articles, they have 'well spun for their target audience' articles. Unless you're willing to contend Fox has good articles as well? (I'm generally not willing to, but maybe you are.) Really, if the headline is 'This political idea is becoming more likely' you should recognize you're reading an opinion/spin piece automatically.

    The last two widely publicized shootings -- Santa Fe and Parkland -- are examples of ways that gun control doesn't help. The Santa Fe shooting wouldn't have been stopped by ANY of the proposed gun laws -- the weapons used are not addressed at all. The Parkland shooter may have been inconvenienced by some of the new laws (he'd have not used an AR-15, but instead a hunting rifle that didn't look as scary), but that would have only been after the massive failures of law enforcement, the school, and his parents to do anything about a clearly unbalanced and dangerous child. Hell, the Parkland asshole advertised well in advance.

    The rush to control guns isn't addressing the problems it's ostensibly being crafted for. None of the recent ideas would have prevented either of these shootings. And you're going to find that Vox's ideas that people support tighter gun control pretty much disappears when the exact nature of the gun control comes out. It's never 'improved background checks' but rather 'hide the scary-looking guns' because the actual knowledge base on guns is so damn limited.
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    I think ovi's right.

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    a figment of your imagination COMMUNITY SUPPORTER Palaralae's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ovinomancer View Post
    Apparently, the media has learned that if you put buckshot in a shotgun it gets way more lethal than if you used regular shotgun bullets.
    Shotguns take shells, not bullets.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor View Post

    There are too many doors.

    There are at least 4 doors open at the start of the school day. Two are the main entrances - one the 'Athletic/Auditorium' entrance, the other the 'Main' entrance. While there are teachers and administration out front most days greeting the kids, as far as I've been able to glean from conversations with my spawn, there is only one "resource officer" at the main entrance. That leaves three other doors that are essentially unobserved.


    ETA: And to us this shit is real - they already removed a kid this year because it seemed he might be on the verge. My son knew him and he often talked openly about all of his guns and he was bullied relentlessly. It apparently got to the point of requiring an intervention.
    Agreed about the doors. Our resource officer's office is located near one of the two sort of "main" entrances as well. And she's only around for random hours, not all day long. It ends up being more on the teachers and staff to look for and recognize what our supe termed "the shaken can"; that kid who is on some sort of physical or emotional edge and it's only going to take one more or one specific thing to make him blow up, and see what we can do to defuse it.

    Also agree about feeling the very visceral reality of threats; we had one at the start of the year where a young lady decided to make a list of "people to shoot" that were in the high school and post it on some sort of social media.

    Then we had a twenty-something former student that apparently made some vague threats on a podcast he has about shooting up two schools that he had previously attended, one of which would be ours. The irony was that a LEO in Texas heard the podcast and alerted authorities. I guess I'm glad someone was listening and decided to do something...

    Quote Originally Posted by nail bunny View Post
    We have those every few years here in different counties in Florida... doesn't seem to make much of a difference.
    I read something the other day (don't ask me to point to it just now) that in a lot of states, guns that are seized or otherwise acquired by law enforcement departments (including in buybacks) often get re-sold and are generally an important source of revenue for a good many of those departments. That wouldn't seem to make much of a difference, either, other than perhaps putting the guns into a different sort of market.
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    Pony Up! Ovinomancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palaralae View Post
    Shotguns take shells, not bullets.
    Yes, I was mocking clueless reporters.
    Quote Originally Posted by PWD View Post
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    I think ovi's right.

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    56% of an excuse nail bunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palaralae View Post
    Shotguns take shells, not bullets.
    He already covered his stunning lack of firearm knowledge, hence:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ovinomancer View Post
    ... because the actual knowledge base on guns is so damn limited.
    See?


    Quote Originally Posted by Ovinomancer View Post
    Yes, I was mocking clueless reporters.
    Uh-huh, sure, sure...
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