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Thread: The UK has lost Free Speech

  1. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Enkhidu View Post

    Now I think that it's a pretty bad idea to ask for those direct votes on a frequent basis if you want a stable and sustainable democracy, but that's a different objection.
    Considering how unstable and unsustainable the political climate in the UK right now with hard Brexit looming, a referendum might be the better option. At least for the short term.
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  • #77
    56% of an excuse nail bunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ovinomancer View Post
    That's not what he said.
    Of course it wasn't... but that's why the call for the second referendum has been made since the day of the first one was tallied. The Remainers have been upset they lost since day one and demanding a second vote. There is no other reason to hold a second vote, except to get a new result. Those calling for the new vote won't be happy with the results of second one if still goes against them.

    Granted, I've been mildly miffed with May and her failures to Brexit (basically stalling until Brexit collapses), but I'm not British, so my being annoyed with the Tories is completely pointless.
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  • #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Enkhidu View Post
    I'm not sure I can agree with that statement. Asking for direct votes on a very regular basis when new information arises strikes me as a far more pure form of mob rule democracy than plowing on ahead without one.
    Imagine if this was done with elected presidents.

  • #79
    Pony Up! Ovinomancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nail bunny View Post
    Of course it wasn't... but that's why the call for the second referendum has been made since the day of the first one was tallied. The Remainers have been upset they lost since day one and demanding a second vote. There is no other reason to hold a second vote, except to get a new result. Those calling for the new vote won't be happy with the results of second one if still goes against them.

    Granted, I've been mildly miffed with May and her failures to Brexit (basically stalling until Brexit collapses), but I'm not British, so my being annoyed with the Tories is completely pointless.
    No, I agree, here, if for slightly different reasons, but Enk's point was much broader and valid.

    If new information comes to light that seriously impacts a previous referendum, it's valid to argue to hold a new one. With respect to Brexit, that's not the case. There's no new information because everyone knew what a shitpile a no-deal exit would be, at least generally. That the government has failed to negotiate a deal that the government will accept isn't new information, it's just the government failing. If the government failing was sufficient for a new referendum, then, in effect, you're giving the government a veto on the referendum. That's no good.

    However, I'm not a British subject, so my opinion on this holds no weight. Great Britain's gonna Great Britain.
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    I think ovi's right.

  • #80
    That's Wacist! Mistwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ovinomancer View Post
    Don't be kirinke stupid.
    Cold. That was stone cold Ovi.
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  • #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Ovinomancer View Post
    No, I agree, here, if for slightly different reasons, but Enk's point was much broader and valid.

    If new information comes to light that seriously impacts a previous referendum, it's valid to argue to hold a new one. With respect to Brexit, that's not the case. There's no new information because everyone knew what a shitpile a no-deal exit would be, at least generally. That the government has failed to negotiate a deal that the government will accept isn't new information, it's just the government failing. If the government failing was sufficient for a new referendum, then, in effect, you're giving the government a veto on the referendum. That's no good.

    However, I'm not a British subject, so my opinion on this holds no weight. Great Britain's gonna Great Britain.
    People didn't know Brexit was going to be shit. It is why it won. Now people know and should be able to express how their view has changed.
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  • #82
    self admitted prolifer kirinke's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistwell View Post
    Cold. That was stone cold Ovi.
    I ignore him when he does that. Mainly because his insults are kinda tired and meh. No pizzaz.
    Last edited by kirinke; March 13th, 2019 at 01:05 AM.
    Madness does not always howl. Sometimes, it is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying, "Hey, is there room in your head for one more?"

    I is before E except after C, then it's chaos man, mass chaos! Letters coming together into words, but then you go English and they put U's in places that just shouldn't go there... AHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

    My sanity left town along time ago and didn't leave a forwarding address. It's not missed.

  • #83
    I want watermelon! Bagpuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nail bunny View Post
    So you were a Remainer? What about the EU was better than Britain going it's own way?
    Economically it's suicide to leave the agreements we have with our largest trading partner without a deal.

    When the originally referendum was called even the Leavers were saying we would remain part of the single market, and to think otherwise was scaremongering.

    Also Europe is stronger together than it is as separate nations, is it any wonder the USA and Russian both want to see it broken up.

    Migrants from Europe to the UK are a net bonus to the tax system paying in far more than they take out, and significantly more than locals over their lifetime.

    What advantages are their in going our own way?

    (I am probably slightly bias being married to a Spaniard)

    I should hope so*, pushing a second referendum is antithetical to democracy.
    They shouldn't have even had the first one, but the public was so lied to about the effects of Brexit, plus the Leavers actually broke electoral law, this is one case I can see two wrongs making a right.

    Oh and as for it being undemocratic to have multiple votes until you get the result you want... May has just scheduled a 3rd vote on her deal, after the vote against no-deal option was passed last night.
    Last edited by Bagpuss; March 14th, 2019 at 09:55 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Oliver View Post
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    Damn you and your perfectly valid criticism!

  • #84
    56% of an excuse nail bunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bagpuss View Post
    ...plus the Leavers actually broke electoral law, this is one case I can see two wrongs making a right.
    From what I gather, both sides broke the laws.

    Oh and as for it being undemocratic to have multiple votes until you get the result you want... May has just scheduled a 3rd vote on her deal, after the vote against no-deal option was passed last night.
    Yes, well, May has been a shit show from jump on this... but really who is poised to replace her?
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  • #85
    Quote Originally Posted by nail bunny View Post
    From what I gather, both sides broke the laws.


    Yes, well, May has been a shit show from jump on this... but really who is poised to replace her?
    I am not sure it's really her fault. I suppose one would expect a good leader to be able to somehow bring this crazy mess both parties in the UK are in together to vote for something, but I am not discounting the possibility that messes haven't been that crazy before.

  • #86
    56% of an excuse nail bunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustrum_Ridcully View Post
    I am not sure it's really her fault. I suppose one would expect a good leader to be able to somehow bring this crazy mess both parties in the UK are in together to vote for something, but I am not discounting the possibility that messes haven't been that crazy before.
    I think the problem is, she doesn't want a Brexit. The Tories did not want a Brexit. So she's been just futzing around until it it could all fall apart and she'd be 'blameless'. At Least that what it looks like from the cheap seats.
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  • #87
    Quote Originally Posted by nail bunny View Post
    I think the problem is, she doesn't want a Brexit. The Tories did not want a Brexit. So she's been just futzing around until it it could all fall apart and she'd be 'blameless'. At Least that what it looks like from the cheap seats.
    The fascist shortcut, you mean.
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  • #88
    Quote Originally Posted by nail bunny View Post
    I think the problem is, she doesn't want a Brexit. The Tories did not want a Brexit. So she's been just futzing around until it it could all fall apart and she'd be 'blameless'. At Least that what it looks like from the cheap seats.
    Well, it seems there was a sizable number of people in the Tories that wanted the Brexit, people like Boris Johnson. The problem seems to be the Tories themselves are split, and it's a frigging huge issue they are split on.

  • #89
    I want watermelon! Bagpuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nail bunny View Post
    I think the problem is, she doesn't want a Brexit. The Tories did not want a Brexit.
    None of the major parties want Brexit, and the vast majority of the population don't want a no deal Brexit.

    I suspect by now a majority don't want any form of Brexit, but it will only be a slight majority, just like before.

    And of course Europe doesn't want a Brexit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Oliver View Post
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    Damn you and your perfectly valid criticism!

  • #90
    Religipster Enkhidu's Avatar
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    Brexit, in many respects, shows the limits of direct democracy.

    If nothing else, I hope that the powers in the west absorb this lesson, and recommit to representative democracy as a brake on the willfulness of new and narrow majorities.

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