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Thread: The Last Jedi [Spoilers]

  1. #16
    Friendly Coffee Kzach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger Wickett View Post
    I'm mostly with Spoony.

 

  • #17
    That's *Miss* Manners to you. Ranger Wickett's Avatar
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    I'm mostly with Spoony.

    Even if you accept Disney's goal of destroying all the victories the original characters have and making them failures, this movie still has a lot of pacing issues and plot threads that don't affect characters in any meaningful way. It needed a lot of editing and tightening and a bit of second-order thinking to keep the nerds from getting angry about the technology.

    (That said, I think it's well established now that in the Star Wars galaxy, space is full of air, and planets are very small which is why they only have one biome.)

    My biggest complaint is that they had all the original characters fuck up in flashbacks. Maybe I could buy Luke contemplating murdering his nephew in his sleep, but that moment needs to be earned. If they'd wanted to go with that explanation, they should have had a movie before The Force Awakens that starts with things being good and then have it fall apart due to the influence of bad guys. TFA could have been episode 8, and honestly, this one could have worked as an Ep 9 trilogy climax.

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  • #18
    cowabunga! Remathilis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kzach View Post
    And? How does that make it a bad thing? Should anything anyone in a movie ever does always succeed? Make for some pretty boring movies.
    You miss my point; it literally added nothing to the plot if they succeeded either. If they had disabled the hyperspace tracking beacon, it wouldn't have mattered since they goal was never to jump to hyperspace. In fact, by doing this, they foiled the actual plan since Slicer-dude gave up the plan to the First Order anyway. So if they won, they did nothing, and since they lost they jeopardized the plan further. Its the opposite of a good idea, it was a total clusterfuck failure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kzach View Post
    Maybe because it wasn't their only resource or base? Fuck, that was really hard for me to come up with. Took all of a millisecond of brain power.
    The same resources that came to help during the OJ Simpson chase?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kzach View Post
    He didn't. Christ, follow a fucking script. Lor San Tekka explored the galaxy as an adherent of the Church of the Force. Luke journeyed with him for a time to learn what he could of the first Jedi. All anyone knew of Luke was that he'd gone to Ahch-To, the rumoured location of the first Jedi temple. Not even Lor San Tekka knew where it was, but he did manage to find half of a star map that had it's location in it. To pinpoint it in 4D space, you needed the other half of the map, which was, unbeknownst to anyone, always in R2-D2's databanks, ever since he was on the original Death Star and accessed its records, records which were mostly destroyed when the original Death Star was blown up.
    Got a source for this, since I don't recall this being discussed in TFA. In fact, the Visual Dictionary suggests that Luke gave San Tekka that map portion as a fail-safe.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kzach View Post
    Sigh.
    Yeah, it sucks when the movie's central tension point could be derided by a simple fucking pincer maneuver.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kzach View Post
    Wait, what?
    The hyperspace tracker was on Snoke's ship. Snoke didn't know about it until Hux told him AFTER the loss of the Dreadnought. (In the scene where Snoke tells Kylo to take of the mask).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kzach View Post
    Well, that explains why you suck.
    It means I have a high tolerance for bullshit and even this was beyond the pale.
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  • #19
    Pony Up! Ovinomancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remathilis View Post
    You miss my point; it literally added nothing to the plot if they succeeded either. If they had disabled the hyperspace tracking beacon, it wouldn't have mattered since they goal was never to jump to hyperspace. In fact, by doing this, they foiled the actual plan since Slicer-dude gave up the plan to the First Order anyway. So if they won, they did nothing, and since they lost they jeopardized the plan further. Its the opposite of a good idea, it was a total clusterfuck failure.
    That entire arc sets up Finn's realization that he needs to fight for something instead of against (or just run away from); Poe's realization that leadership is more than leading the charge and getting everyone killed; and the entire Resistance's belief that you must maintain hope even in the darkest times.

    Hell, they hit those notes so damn hard some many times, but even if you missed it, they brought out Yoda to drive it home with the 'failure is the best teacher' line. Sheesh.

    The same resources that came to help during the OJ Simpson chase?
    I seem to recall that the only thing keeping the 1st Order in check in TFA was the combined Republic fleet, which they destroyed at the same time the Republic Senate and seat of government was destroyed. From the moment Starkiller fired, the 1st Order was the most powerful military force in the galaxy. Just because the plucky rebels destroyed Starkiller didn't remove the fact that the 1st Order had the only sizable standing army and starfleet in the galaxy.

    Got a source for this, since I don't recall this being discussed in TFA. In fact, the Visual Dictionary suggests that Luke gave San Tekka that map portion as a fail-safe.
    People going to commit suicide often leave notes? Yeah, so there's a small plothole. Luke ran away and hid from everything, but left a map. If he hadn't, well, TFA would have been a detective film of stopping on planets and asking if anyone had seen a robed weirdo 10 years ago (or however long it was). The map bit doesn't entirely make sense, but it's a useful shortcut to get the plot moving.

    Yeah, it sucks when the movie's central tension point could be derided by a simple fucking pincer maneuver.
    Lightspeed is not precise. Han dropping the Falcon in behind the planetary shield in TFA was something that was an staggering display of piloting. And it was the guns on Snoke's flagship that were able to actually bombard the Resistance cruiser, not the escorting Destroyers. Even if they had put the Destroyers ahead, the Cruiser could probably survive to punch through an oncoming force, and any flanking force it could just turn and outpace. So, for that tactic to be effective, they'd have had to jump directly ahead and have a brief engagement window that would likely not be decisive. The stern chase was a done deal -- just takes time. No need to pull assets off of other tasking when the quarry is already in the bag.

    And that's the big point, here, if you're wondering why they didn't just jump some forces ahead and have multiple running engagements, it's because they didn't need to. The Resistance cruiser could hurt a Destroyer, so why risk it when it's already in the bag, it'll just take a few hours. That plan would have worked exactly had not very strange things happened that were, to put it mildly, not exactly what you plan on when engaging in a chase.

    And, to touch back on the hyperdrive ramming maneuver, it's possible that the shields on the ships would be able to resist a smaller craft plunging in. It was only a major capital ship that posed the danger, and navies probably don't build capital ships to kamikaze them. Also, unless you're driving around in a Snoke Flagship sized vessel, I imagine it's pretty hard to hit a target at lightspeed.


    The hyperspace tracker was on Snoke's ship. Snoke didn't know about it until Hux told him AFTER the loss of the Dreadnought. (In the scene where Snoke tells Kylo to take of the mask).
    Right, it was new tech being tested. Until it works, you don't tell the merciless egomanic that it's his bag of capabilities. Once it proved itself, likely on Ren's Destroyer (else how did the Flagship track the Resistance fleet when it wasn't present when they jumped?), the tech was activated in the flagship. Rose said that any of the 1st Order ships could do the tracking, but only one at a time. So, Ren tracks the first jump from his Destroyer, informs Snoke that the technology works and they can now track the Resistance through hyperspace, the Flagship (and her escorts) join Ren's Destroyer, they all merrily set off after the Resistance fleet with the Flagship now running the tracker in case the Resistance fleet jumps again.

    It means I have a high tolerance for bullshit and even this was beyond the pale.
    Eh, it seems you failed to get a few of the points that were explained onscreen or reinforced constantly and just felt like the movie should have been something else instead of what it was.

    I felt the first half was weak, but still had a number of enjoyable parts. The second half I loved.
    Quote Originally Posted by PWD View Post
    I think ovi's right.

  • #20
    I didn't not-enjoy it while watching it. But the more thinking about it I do, the more dissatisfied I become

    -Hyp.

  • #21
    cowabunga! Remathilis's Avatar
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    Pop quiz: who utters the famous Easter egg "I have a bad feeling about this." In the movie?
    America. Fueled by Cancer.

  • #22
    Pony Up! Ovinomancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hypersmurf View Post
    I didn't not-enjoy it while watching it. But the more thinking about it I do, the more dissatisfied I become

    -Hyp.
    Felt that way about TFA, but I like this one more after thinking on it. Some holes, yes, but the main themes were heavily reinforced throughout. Also, I really liked all the goodbyes to Linda.
    Quote Originally Posted by PWD View Post
    I think ovi's right.

  • #23
    Friendly Coffee Kzach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remathilis View Post
    It means I have a high tolerance for bullshit and even this was beyond the pale.
    No, it means you're an idiot.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger Wickett View Post
    I'm mostly with Spoony.

  • #24
    cowabunga! Remathilis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kzach View Post
    No, it means you're an idiot.
    I love you too, Kzach.
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  • #25

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  • #26
    I want watermelon! Bagpuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remathilis View Post
    For example, what did Finn and Rose accomplish? Put another way, if you literally remove them both from the movie, what in the plot changes?
    Well they don't recruit a corrupt splicer who sells them and the rebels out to the First Order so the Admiral's plan works and all the rebels escape alive!

    Second, how did the First Order go from utter devastation of Starkiller base to basically having the Resistance on the run. Did I miss who won in TFA?
    The Starkiller wiped out the Republic homeworld and fleet before it was taken down and the Resistance who were only a small force supported by rogue Republic elements expended much of their forces attacking the Starkiller.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Oliver View Post
    Damn you and your perfectly valid criticism!

  • #27
    I want watermelon! Bagpuss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Spoony View Post
    This counter argument only holds water if we've never seen FAR, FAR, FAR more effective bombers in Star Wars canon before, but we have - the Y-Wings
    They are much more like WW2 torpedo boats.

    These Do-Do Wings aren't even up to WWII era tech - they handle, move and behave like fucking zepplins, and the Ties slaughtered them like Zepplins. That one got through at all was an act of deus ex machina, not any skill on the pilot's part or the craft's.
    Most of them actually they only went down due to a cascade of circumstances due to one being hit just as it was about to drop it's bombs, the TIE's weren't being particularly effective.

    It was already established the First Order had the fuel reserves to do mulitple hyperspace jumps. If the Resistance doesn't have the fuel to do that, constant acceleration isn't going to help. I'm sorry, but the excuse is just flat out stupid.
    The Resistance cruiser was more maneuverable (IE had better acceleration) at sub-light speeds, so while it could out distance them short term, however it was only a matter of time before they would run out of fuel and could not maintain that acceleration and allowing the First Order who had larger fuel reserves to catch up, as they could continue to accelerate for longer if not as swiftly. It makes perfect sense.

    Pretty sure it can be turned off.
    Remotely from a cloaked transport without giving away your position?

    Historically Star Wars hasn't tried stunts like this so it isn't as jarring. The last time we saw a ship to ship collision it was in Rogue One. It was silly, but it wasn't take me out of the moment silly and it was internally consistent with what's already been in Star Wars.
    So Arvel Crynyd didn't fly his A-Wing into the bridge of the Executor?


    Yes, I was paying attention.When your back is against the wall like that sending out the last of your pilots on an obvious suicide run makes no sense at all.Hell, those speeders where in such wretched shape that they were as likely to kill the Resistance pilots as the damn First Order was. It just doesn't make any sense.
    Well it does when you consider Poe was effectively in charge of them by that point.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Oliver View Post
    Damn you and your perfectly valid criticism!

  • #28
    I liked it. Particularly because it managed to surprise me and didn't feel like a rehash of another Star Wars movie like TFA did. Even though at first I thought it might do exactly that.

    The military tactics and technology is ... questionable, but that is kinda how Star Wars is. (The Hyperspace ramming maneuver sounds really like something that could be used more often. Especially if you'd build dedicated one-shot-use battering rams instead of fully manned cruisers with heavy armnament and hangar bays.)

    The thing that probably bothers me most story-wise is that the Order had so completely wiped out the Republic forces already.

  • #29
    Friendly Coffee Kzach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustrum_Ridcully View Post
    The Hyperspace ramming maneuver sounds really like something that could be used more often.
    This argument is the dumbest of them all. Hey, why don't we have one use ramming stuff too? I mean, shit, if we sent a Boeing 737 on autopilot to ram every aircraft carrier, then we'd win all the wars, everywhere!

    It's funny how y'all think you can have an independent thought and yet you parrot all the dumbest shit that is being repeated online about the Last Jedi and everything else you think you thought of yourselves.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ranger Wickett View Post
    I'm mostly with Spoony.

  • #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Mustrum_Ridcully View Post
    The military tactics and technology is ... questionable, but that is kinda how Star Wars is. (The Hyperspace ramming maneuver sounds really like something that could be used more often. Especially if you'd build dedicated one-shot-use battering rams instead of fully manned cruisers with heavy armnament and hangar bays.)
    I didn't grok the hyperspace ramming maneuver either, since SW isn't really my thing and I fully admit I don't know the canon on how stuff works. I had initially wondered how ships in hypespace manage to avoid running into stuff at that high of speed, but as you mentioned the technology in SW is so out there I just pleasantly operate under the suspension of disbelief.

    Dark the stars and dark the moon
    Hush the night and the morning loon
    Tell the horses and beat on your drum
    Gone their master, gone their son.

    Dark the oceans, dark the sky
    Hush the whales and the ocean tide
    Tell the salt marsh and beat on your drum
    Gone their master, gone their son.


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