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Thread: The Russian Trump Thread

  1. #46
    Religipster Enkhidu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreyOne View Post
    I don't disagree with any of that.

    But again Trump is a different paradigm when it comes to news. How do you meet it?
    Stop treating news like re-Tweets? Ignore stupidity even when it originates from famous people? Stop pretending TMZ is news?

    Also, I don't think Trump is a different paradigm - it's the same one started by Ted Turner with CNN. It's just the most recent (and obviously most impactful) expression of the root problem.

 

  • #47
    Not a pony! GreyOne's Avatar
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    Thought this was interesting for the history lesson.

    Quote Originally Posted by New York Times
    Counterintelligence is long, hard work. Investigators need time to string along suspects — seeking the who, what, when, where and why of the case. The Federal Bureau of Investigation tries to build 3-D chronologies of who did what to whom. Agents usually follow the money, the best evidence. That’s how the feds got Al Capone: for tax evasion.

    The F.B.I. director, James B. Comey, is running the most explosive counterintelligence case since Soviet spies stole the secrets of the atom bomb more than 70 years ago. Some of those atomic spies didn’t speak Russian: They were Americans. We now know that President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia attacked American democracy by meddling in the 2016 election. Did he enlist American mercenaries?

    A tantalizing clue came at the House Intelligence Committee hearing on Monday.

    First, Democrats named names: the former Trump campaign director, Paul Manafort, dismissed shortly after the F.B.I.’s investigation started in late July; then the former Trump national security adviser, Michael T. Flynn, who lost his job last month. Both appear to have had pecuniary ties to Mr. Putin’s allies — in Mr. Manafort’s case, a politician and an oligarch; in Mr. Flynn’s case, RT, the news and propaganda network.

    Then Mr. Comey was asked to explain the Foreign Agents Registration Act.

    “Sure,” the director said.


    The act, known as FARA, is intended to prevent espionage or illicit foreign influence on American public opinion, policy and laws. It requires Americans acting as agents of a foreign government to register with the Justice Department. A willful failure to register can be a crime.

    If members of Team Trump were paid by Russians to exert political influence, they should have registered under FARA. In fact, Mr. Flynn belatedly filed a FARA report two weeks ago: He received $500,000 as an agent for the government of Turkey during the Trump campaign. According to The Associated Press, Mr. Manafort failed to report work he did a decade ago for a Russian billionaire closely allied with Mr. Putin.

    FARA is a potentially powerful but rarely enforced law. It began when President Franklin D. Roosevelt called the F.B.I. director J. Edgar Hoover into the White House in 1936 and asked him for “a broad picture” of “subversive activities in the United States, particularly Fascism and Communism,” according to a Hoover memo.

    Mr. Hoover used wiretapping to gather intelligence — but Congress had outlawed it. He interpreted the law his way: If it was secret, it was legal. But he still could not use it as evidence at a trial. The solution was FARA. The law, passed in 1938, allowed the F.B.I. to arrest those suspected of spying without prosecuting them for espionage. If they failed to register, Mr. Hoover could try to lock them up.

    In May 1941, the bureau charged Moscow’s economic and commercial chief in New York under the law. The man, Gaik Ovakimian, won diplomatic protection and returned to Moscow. But he was Stalin’s chief spy in the United States. It took the F.B.I. a decade to confirm that.

    Indeed, the Justice Department seldom proves that violators of the registration act are secret agents of a foreign power: Just five people have been convicted under the law in the past 50 years. The Government Accountability Office, the oversight arm of Congress, has warned repeatedly since the Watergate era that people were acting as foreign agents without registering, and registered agents were concealing their real work. No “comprehensive enforcement strategy” exists, the Justice Department’s inspector general reported in September.

    The F.B.I.’s national-security division has vowed to establish a FARA strategy starting on March 31. The investigation into possible Russia ties to the Trump campaign may well turn on the enforcement of that arcane law.

    The thoroughness of the F.B.I. investigation is all the more important now amid growing evidence that Congress is unwilling or unable to conduct an impartial investigation. That was made clear on Thursday when Representative Devin Nunes, a California Republican who is chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, disclosed that American intelligence agencies may have “incidentally” collected information about Trump transition team members.

    Democrats said that Mr. Nunes’s release of classified information appeared intended to buttress Mr. Trump’s widely disputed accusation that he had been “wiretapped.” Representative Adam Schiff, the ranking Democrat on the committee, questioned Mr. Nunes’s objectivity, adding that “there is more than circumstantial evidence” that the Trump team colluded with the Russians during the 2016 election.


    Who, then, is going to handle this keg of Kremlin dynamite? If a case proceeds, the first step may well be taken under FARA. And if that case goes to court, the F.B.I. will need an impartial overseer. But the ability of Congress to investigate fairly is dubious. Attorney General Jeff Sessions, who oversees the F.B.I., has recused himself owing to his own contacts with the Russian ambassador. The best answer may be an independent prosecutor, a step Democrats want but Republicans oppose.

    Without one, Round 2 of this contest could go to Team Putin. Be prepared for a long battle: Mr. Comey warned on Monday that the Russians will be back for the next election.
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  • #48
    That's Wacist! Mistwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreyOne View Post
    I don't disagree with any of that.

    But again Trump is a different paradigm when it comes to news. How do you meet it?
    You wait, to gather a fuller picture before you report it. Even if that means the competition will get to tidbits of it first. You just wait, a simple 24 hours. You give yourself time to ask, "Is this really news?" and "What would I need to know, and from whom, to verify this news?" Unless it's about nuclear war or the news will directly impact an imminent vote, the world will not come to an end if you just fucking wait the time it takes to genuinely gather the fuller picture of facts before reporting it. And better editing - there needs to be a return to the days of editors focusing on editing, and given the time to edit.

    The current system of rushing everything half-assed out the door as fast as possible and barely editing it as it's being run so you can beat the competition to ratings (that don't actually even relate to that much anymore anyway) is not to the overall benefit of our society.

    Not that this problem is unique to news media. Big corporations in general suffer a similar problem of rushing to the next quarterly report and the next stockholders meeting instead of taking a longer picture. Much of our society suffers from this issue, and the news media is more a reflection of a symptom rather than a cause.
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  • #49
    Not a pony! GreyOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enkhidu View Post
    Stop treating news like re-Tweets? Ignore stupidity even when it originates from famous people? Stop pretending TMZ is news?

    Also, I don't think Trump is a different paradigm - it's the same one started by Ted Turner with CNN. It's just the most recent (and obviously most impactful) expression of the root problem.
    Who here is posting about re-tweets? That's more for the late-night talk show and internet meme crowd EXCEPT when he's literally tweeting during hearings AND the Senators are bringing up the tweets in their questions? How can you ignore stupidity from the most Powerful Man on Earth?

    Has there ever been a President like Trump and his ability to generate controversy on a daily and sometimes hourly basis?

    Again, are you having second thoughts on Clinton? Just from the angle of having to watch this circus shit-show for the next how many years? How can you argue this is NOT a new paradigm?
    Last edited by GreyOne; March 24th, 2017 at 06:22 PM.
    GreyOne - "At what point do enough innocent bodies stack up where you decide your Second Amendment isn't worth the paper required to wipe a medium-sized bowel movement?"

    Ovinomancer - "As for your questions, more."

  • #50
    That's Wacist! Mistwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enkhidu View Post
    Stop treating news like re-Tweets? Ignore stupidity even when it originates from famous people? Stop pretending TMZ is news?
    I watch TMZ most nights. Aside from the entertainment aspects, it's more "news" than a lot of news these days. They do rush shit out the door as fast as it comes in without much in the way of editing - but they're VERY up front about that fact. You're watching the reporters and editors in the act of processing that news as it comes in, right there at their desk talking about what they're getting, so you can as a viewer get a much better picture of what probably is missing from that reporting. In fact they often tell you where they are at in that process and warn where information is missing. You will often hear Harvey Levin or an editor say something like, "Now we have not talked to the police chief or any police source yet to get their side of the story so it could be they will have something to say about their perspective that's highly relevant to getting at the bigger picture here, and Jeff here is trying to contact them now about that and we'll report it when and if we get that information..." or something like that. They will also often tell you their bias on that news up front, without a lot of bullshit around that, and usually there will be two guys disagreeing and giving their biases an airing about that news.

    So in a world where everyone is rushing unedited news out the door as fast as they can, I will take the TMZ team in their street clothing eating a piece of pizza at their desk reading an email out loud that's at least telling me exactly where they are at and what is missing over the NBC team pretending nothing is missing and making it seem slick and packaged and ready with graphics and news readers in makeup and good lighting when really the news element is just as messy as the TMZ team.
    Last edited by Mistwell; March 24th, 2017 at 06:09 PM.
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  • #51
    Not a pony! GreyOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistwell View Post
    You wait, to gather a fuller picture before you report it. Even if that means the competition will get to tidbits of it first. You just wait, a simple 24 hours. You give yourself time to ask, "Is this really news?" and "What would I need to know, and from whom, to verify this news?" Unless it's about nuclear war or the news will directly impact an imminent vote, the world will not come to an end if you just fucking wait the time it takes to genuinely gather the fuller picture of facts before reporting it. And better editing - there needs to be a return to the days of editors focusing on editing, and given the time to edit.

    The current system of rushing everything half-assed out the door as fast as possible and barely editing it as it's being run so you can beat the competition to ratings (that don't actually even relate to that much anymore anyway) is not to the overall benefit of our society.

    Not that this problem is unique to news media. Big corporations in general suffer a similar problem of rushing to the next quarterly report and the next stockholders meeting instead of taking a longer picture. Much of our society suffers from this issue, and the news media is more a reflection of a symptom rather than a cause.
    Again I don't disagree with any of that and hope it changes but the technology/social media cat is out of the bag and it's not going back in. We're all adopters of social media. Are you all ready to get rid of it?

    Trump is different. Different than anything that's happened before. He can literally say anything he wants and not have it come back to haunt him. That's a noteworthy and troubling new paradigm.
    GreyOne - "At what point do enough innocent bodies stack up where you decide your Second Amendment isn't worth the paper required to wipe a medium-sized bowel movement?"

    Ovinomancer - "As for your questions, more."

  • #52
    Not a pony! GreyOne's Avatar
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    I don't even really know what TMZ is. Don't watch it. I thought it was entertainment news which I can't stand.
    GreyOne - "At what point do enough innocent bodies stack up where you decide your Second Amendment isn't worth the paper required to wipe a medium-sized bowel movement?"

    Ovinomancer - "As for your questions, more."

  • #53
    It is funny how the line "we do not care about Trump and Russia" is the Fow News line and how it ends up on thise board. There are good thought slaves here.
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  • #54
    That's Wacist! Mistwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreyOne View Post
    Again I don't disagree with any of that and hope it changes but the technology/social media cat is out of the bag and it's not going back in. We're all adopters of social media. Are you all ready to get rid of it?
    Me? Yes. If I could magically make the Internet disappear, yeah I probably would. I think, on balance, society did better without it than with it, despite the benefits it provides (which are tremendous). But then that's more about wishing for magic unicorns, not reality. This is reality, and in this reality it makes no sense for me as an individual to live without the Internet while most of the rest of humanity on my continent are living with it.

    Trump is different. Different than anything that's happened before. He can literally say anything he wants and not have it come back to haunt him. That's a noteworthy and troubling new paradigm.
    He takes it up three notches, but I am not sure it's really all that different from what's come before, across the world, though less so in our nation. There have been many Teflon leaders in history - so many that the phrase was coined well before he was President.
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  • #55
    That's Wacist! Mistwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreyOne View Post
    I don't even really know what TMZ is. Don't watch it. I thought it was entertainment news which I can't stand.
    It is mostly entertainment news (which is why we watch it - it's my wife's sin) but that bleeds into "hard news" a lot these days, particularly with Trump. A lot of it is a humorous take on Hollywood though, yes. A good attorney, and longtime mainstream reporter, runs it and is the lead face of TMZ. Which leads to a lot of discussion of free speech, free press, the nature and role of the press in society, etc..
    Last edited by Mistwell; March 24th, 2017 at 07:04 PM.
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  • #56
    Not a pony! GreyOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistwell View Post
    Me? Yes. If I could magically make the Internet disappear, yeah I probably would. I think, on balance, society did better without it than with it, despite the benefits it provides (which are tremendous). But then that's more about wishing for magic unicorns, not reality. This is reality, and in this reality it makes no sense for me as an individual to live without the Internet while most of the rest of humanity on my continent are living with it.



    He takes it up three notches, but I am not sure it's really all that different from what's come before, across the world, though less so in our nation. There have been many Teflon leaders in history - so many that the phrase was coined well before he was President.
    I hope you're right. I've just never seen someone like this before. The only one that comes close in my mind is Berlusconi, but he's still several levels lower on the "Holy shit what did he just say?" meter.

    I totally agree on the internet. On a personal level I find myself more and more addicted to the internet and it's vapid charms. I'm seriously considering an extended break from it. I know I'd get a lot more shit done and have less worries.
    GreyOne - "At what point do enough innocent bodies stack up where you decide your Second Amendment isn't worth the paper required to wipe a medium-sized bowel movement?"

    Ovinomancer - "As for your questions, more."

  • #57
    Quote Originally Posted by GreyOne View Post
    I hope you're right. I've just never seen someone like this before. The only one that comes close in my mind is Berlusconi, but he's still several levels lower on the "Holy shit what did he just say?" meter.

    I totally agree on the internet. On a personal level I find myself more and more addicted to the internet and it's vapid charms. I'm seriously considering an extended break from it. I know I'd get a lot more shit done and have less worries.
    Wasn't Merkel even called the Teflon Chancellor in some diplomatic wires that were leaked a few years ago?

    I think the special thing - at least in recent memory - about Trump is that he's constantly lying and spewing bullshit. "Normally" it seems more like these Teflon leaders always stay calm, don't get provoked, and act as if they knew about no wrongdoing (and once they knew, acted immediately as appropriate, of course) and had no direct responsiblity over it.

    I think Trump is different. I am not sure if he's really dumb and insane, or if it's really his strategy - flooding us with his bullshit so we can't see the forest for all the trees. The human mind can only focus on a certain amount of things, and you can overwhelm it - basically leading you unable to actually process what's really going (or what else is going on).

  • #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mustrum_Ridcully View Post
    ...basically leading dumb people unable to actually process what's really going (or what else is going on).
    Fixed it for reality.
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  • #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Kzach View Post
    Fixed it for reality.
    Of course, of course no one reading that could possibly believe it would ever in any way apply to him.

  • #60
    Jared Jushner to destify publically about a meeting he had with the Russian ambassador and the head of a Russian bank under sanctions because of the invasion of Crimea. But you know, Clinton's emails! https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/27/u...=top-news&_r=0
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