Thread: The Coming Rule of Trump

  1. #601
    Maxperson's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yablo View Post
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    Sane posters would understand the critic directed toward Ovi and Misty is their use of this fallacy.

    "Whataboutism is a form of defensive propaganda used to counter criticism (usually from "the West", and usually on blatant human rights abuses) with a "What about...?"-question vaguely, if at all, related to the original issue. It is a specialized red herring version of the tu quoque fallacy, sometimes implementing the balance fallacy as well. An old favorite of Communists (especially tankies), the strategy originates from the Soviet era, and was usually used in the form of "And at your place, they hang black people".

    Simply put, whataboutism refers to the bringing up of one issue in order to distract from the discussion of another. It does not apply to the comparison and analysis of two similar issues in terms such as why some are given more social prominence than others.
    "

    Basically, they just close their eyes on whatever Trump does by changing the subject.
    The one flaw in your little theory there is that they aren't doing that. They aren't closing their eyes to what Trump does. They are acknowledging that Trump is bad, which destroys your fallacy accusation. THEN they are pointing out to the hypocrites that the Democrats are also bad. No deflection or distraction is being attempted.

    What is really fascinating is that if Clinton had done a tenth of what Trump said, did or is accused of, they would have soiled themselves and be rocking back and forth in a corner with drool on their chins whispering "corrupt, corrupt, corrupt..." ad nauseam. If at least they'd be more subtle about their hypocricy.
    Were you paying attention to the election at all?

 

  • #602
    Yablo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxperson View Post
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    The one flaw in your little theory there is that they aren't doing that. They aren't closing their eyes to what Trump does. They are acknowledging that Trump is bad, which destroys your fallacy accusation. THEN they are pointing out to the hypocrites that the Democrats are also bad. No deflection or distraction is being attempted.
    They go "Trump is bad", but go no further and do not actually critic or oppose Trump. Instead they switch to "What about Obama/Clinton/Democrats...". They change the subject and talk about a candidate who lost the election, a president who won't be in office in a few days and a party who isn't in power. It is closing their eyes on Trump. It is useful idiots being useful.

    Were you paying attention to the election at all?
    More than you, my little derpiny.
    I am not Gary Busey.

  • #603
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yablo View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member.
    They go "Trump is bad", but go no further and do not actually critic or oppose Trump. Instead they switch to "What about Obama/Clinton/Democrats...". They change the subject and talk about a candidate who lost the election, a president who won't be in office in a few days and a party who isn't in power. It is closing their eyes on Trump. It is useful idiots being useful.
    You ARE Gary Busey!

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    Not a pony! GreyOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nail bunny View Post
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    Idiot CM Liberals: OMG Republican did bads!11!

    Ovi: Democrat also did bads.

    ICML: OMG! Ovi loves teh Repubs!

    Ovi: No, it's just you're ignoring the Bad Things the Dems do.

    ICML: LOL, Ovi loves Repubs and is shit!

    All The Sane Posters:
    Thus demonstrating the full power of your moronic nature.
    GreyOne - "At what point do enough innocent bodies stack up where you decide your Second Amendment isn't worth the paper required to wipe a medium-sized bowel movement?"

    Ovinomancer - "As for your questions, more."

  • #605
    Yablo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maxperson View Post
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    You ARE Gary Busey!
    Liar!
    I am not Gary Busey.

  • #606
    consequences 3catcircus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kirinke View Post
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    That's not a fix shitstain.
    Thus proving my point...

  • #607
    Not a pony! GreyOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dyer
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    2016 year-ender
    Gwynne Dyer*


    The main message of 2016 was that we are entering a period of economic and political upheaval comparable to the industrial revolution of 1780-1850, and nothing expressed that message more clearly than Donald Trump’s appointment of Andrew Puzder as Secretary of Labor.

    Even though it’s clear that neither man understands the message.

    Puzder bears a large part of the responsibility for fulfilling Trump’s election promise to “bring back” America’s lost industrial jobs: Seven million in the past 35 years. That’s what created the Rust Belt and the popular anger that put Trump in power. But Puzder is a fast-food magnate who got rich by shrinking his costs, and he has never met a computer he didn’t like.

    “They’re always polite, they always upsell, they never take a vacation, they never show up late, there’s never a slip-and-fall, or an age-, sex-, or race-discrimination case,” he rhapsodized. They also never take lunch or toilet breaks, they’ll work 24 hours a day, and they don’t have to be paid. So out with the workers and in with the robots.

    It was not evil foreigners who “stole” most of those seven million American jobs, and will probably eliminate up to 50 million more in the next 20 years. It’s the ‘intelligent machines’ that did most of the damage, starting with simple assembly-line robots and ATMs. (”Every Automated Teller Machine contains the ghosts of three bank tellers.”)

    But the automation keeps moving up the skill sets. The first self-driving cars are now on the road in the United States. That’s another four million jobs down the drain, starting with taxi drivers and long-distance truckers. In recent years eight American manufacturing jobs have been lost to automation for every one lost to “globalization,” and it will only get worse.

    A 2013 study concluded that 47 percent of existing jobs in the United States are vulnerable to automation in the next 20 years, and the numbers are as bad or worse for the other developed countries. This is what is really driving the “populist revolution” that caused two of the world’s oldest democracies to make bizarre, self-harming political choices in the past year. First Brexit, then Trump.

    Leaving the European Union will hurt Britain’s economy badly, and putting a man like Donald Trump in the US presidency is a serious mistake. Yet half the voters in each country were so angry that they didn’t care about the likely negative consequences of their vote.

    There is more to come. Beppe Grillo’s populist Five-Star Movement may win the next election in Italy. Marine Le Pen’s National Front (no longer openly anti-Semitic, but still basically neo-fascist) could win the French presidential election next spring. The Netherlands and Germany may see hard-right, anti-immigrant parties in governing coalitions after their forthcoming elections.

    Some people fear that we are seeing a re-run of the 1930s. Economic growth has slowed since the crash of 2008, and unemployment is much higher than it looks. The official US unemployment figure is only 5 percent, but almost one-third of American men between the ages of 25 and 54 are “economically inactive.” So angry populist leaders are popping up again all across the developed world.

    The “Dirty Thirties” ended in the Second World War, and there are obvious parallels today. The European Union is fraying at the edges, and Donald Trump has talked about curtailing US support for NATO. He has also threatened to slap huge tariffs on Chinese exports to the US, and it’s probably a bad idea to push China too hard when it is already in grave economic trouble.

    But this is not the 1930s. There are no ranting dictators promising revenge for lost wars, and government benefits mean that unemployment is no longer a catastrophe for most people in Western countries. The old white working class (and some of the middle class) are angry because jobs are disappearing and because immigration is changing the ethnic balance in their countries, but they are not angry enough to want a war.

    Trump’s election means that we are in for a wild ride in the next four years, but he will ultimately disappoint his supporters because he is barking up the wrong tree. He cannot bring back the jobs that were lost, because most of them were not lost to his favorite culprits: Free trade and uncontrolled immigration.

    Even if Trump understood this, he could not admit it in public, because there is nothing he can do about it.

    He might ban immigrants coming in to “steal American jobs,” and he can tear up free-trade deals to his heart’s content, but his own cabinet contains people who have built their careers on eliminating jobs through automation.

    This is change on the scale of the (first) industrial revolution, and you can’t fight it. But then, you really don’t need to. American industry has shed seven million jobs since 1979, but the value of U.S. factory production has more than doubled (in constant dollars). It is only jobs that are being destroyed, not wealth.


    It is not a disaster for a rich society to reach a point where the same goods are being produced and the same services are being provided, but most people no longer have to work 40 or 50 hours a week (in jobs that most of them hate). Or rather, it’s not a disaster UNLESS HAVING NO WORK MEANS HAVING NO MONEY OR SELF-RESPECT.

    The main political task for the next generation (post-Trump) in the developed countries will be to ensure that those without work have an income they can live on, and don’t lose their self-respect. Other ways will doubtless be suggested, but one way of achieving this that is already getting attention is a Universal Basic Income (UBI).

    The UBI would provide everybody with enough to live on. Since everybody got it, there would be no stigma involved in living on it. And 53 percent of today’s jobs will still be there in 2033, so those who really wanted to work could top up their UBI with earned income. There would still be millionaires.

    The first national referendum on UBI was held in Switzerland last June. It was a radical new idea, so of course it was overwhelmingly rejected. But this idea will not go away, and there will be more like it. The rich countries can stay rich and stable if they understand the nature of the task – but the developing countries may face a grim future.

    No UBI for them -- they are not rich enough, not even China. But automation is eating into their newly gained industrial jobs too. A recent Citibank report estimated that 77 percent of Chinese jobs are at risk from automation, and in India there is talk of “premature deindustrialisation” (i.e. industrial jobs in India may be peaking right now, and will then go into decline).

    That would not just mean continuing poverty for many, but huge political turmoil – populist revolutions and super-Trumps. The future (including the near future) will be quite interesting.


    *Gwynne Dyer is an independent journalist whose articles are published in 45 countries.
    January/02/2017
    http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/201...&NewsCatID=344
    GreyOne - "At what point do enough innocent bodies stack up where you decide your Second Amendment isn't worth the paper required to wipe a medium-sized bowel movement?"

    Ovinomancer - "As for your questions, more."

  • #608
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    "The main political task for the next generation (post-Trump) in the developed countries will be to ensure that those without work have an income they can live on, and don’t lose their self-respect. Other ways will doubtless be suggested, but one way of achieving this that is already getting attention is a Universal Basic Income (UBI)."

    The problem with the UBI and other welfare program is they do not promote usefulness and that doesn't solve the self-worth issue. Reducing working hours to "share" jobs without much of a reduction income seems like a better solution. A utopic one sadly, so I'm sure we'll go down the path of super-Trumps.
    I am not Gary Busey.

  • #609
    Fascinating COMMUNITY SUPPORTER Mustrum_Ridcully's Avatar
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    Don't we have already tools to establish our self-worth outside of traditional jobs?

    I mean, come on - athletes, actors, eSports player... They aren't really producing any goods. but they produce something people value. And nowadays there are more and more ways to self-publish and self-produce you. Sure, you're not going to compete with Micheal Phelps or George Clooney in international attention and prestige, but do you need to? Isn't psychologically the important thing the ability to deliver something - improving yourself, reach a benchmark, finishing some kind of project?

    The "only" thing we need to change is our perception of the value of these things. And I think we're not that far away from that, really.

    I suspect that at the point Univeral Basic Incomes become a reality, we'd also have the ability to deal with it. We're not going to go back and dismantle robots and turn off computers just for the sake of having menial jobs. (Of course, maybe we dismantle them because we nuke each other and destroy the required infrastructure, or because we run out of resources required to maintain them. I am not going to completely ignore the possibility of "doosmday" scenarios happening at some point)

  • #610
    Yablo's Avatar
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    Republicans voted on a holy day to gut the independent office that overlooks their ethics. http://www.vox.com/policy-and-politi...ce-ethics-vote

    "One of the steps Congress will take after new members are sworn in Tuesday: getting rid of the independent office that’s supposed to make sure that members of Congress are acting ethically.House Republicans voted 119-74 Monday evening to all but eliminate the Office of Congressional Ethics. Right now, it’s an independent office, created after lobbyist Jack Abramoff pled guilty to trying to bribe members of Congress, that can investigate allegations of corruption and unethical behavior and disclose its findings to the public.

    House Republicans voted on a measure Monday night — on a federal holiday, with no advance public notice, and reportedly despite opposition from leaders Paul Ryan and Kevin McCarthy — that would eliminate both the office’s independence and its ability to communicate with the public. The full House of Representatives will vote on the proposal Tuesday as part of a new package of Congressional rules.

    The Office of Congressional Ethics would no longer be independent: House Republicans voted to put it under the control of the House Ethics Committee, meaning that lawmakers— and in practice, the Republican majority — would be in charge of the office that’s supposed to be investigating them.

    The office would no longer be allowed to speak to the public independently and would be formally barred from hiring a spokesperson, according to a draft of the rules change obtained by the New York Times.

    The House committee could force the office to stop an investigation at any time, and the office would be prevented from accepting and investigating anonymous tips. The office would no longer be able to relay an issue to law enforcement if it determines a crime is committed.
    And the new rules would rename it the Office of Congressional Complaint Review, rather than the Office of Congressional Ethics, as if to underscore its utter lack of importance. (Who doesn’t have some kind of complaint about Congress?)

    All of this seems to directly contradict president-elect Donald Trump’s pledge to “drain the swamp” in Washington DC. And combined with Trump’s own extensive conflicts of interest, it could make it easier for lawmakers to get away with corruption."

    Cue the useful idiots who will say that the office was useless, but do not propose anything else to replace it. Nihilism works.
    I am not Gary Busey.

  • #611
    cowabunga! Remathilis's Avatar
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    Getting ready for the most corrupted Congress in modern history. They don't even care about appearance anymore, they know the suckers will vote for them and make excuses to cover them.

    We no longer elect representatives, we elect autocrats.

    Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
    America. Fueled by Cancer.

  • #612
    Pony Up! Ovinomancer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remathilis View Post
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    Getting ready for the most corrupted Congress in modern history. They don't even care about appearance anymore, they know the suckers will vote for them and make excuses to cover them.

    We no longer elect representatives, we elect autocrats.

    Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
    While I'm in agreement on the vote to reduce independent ethics review of Congress, this is a great way to open 2017 with irony.
    Quote Originally Posted by PWD View Post
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    I think ovi's right.

  • #613
    56% of an excuse nail bunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remathilis View Post
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    We no longer elect representatives, we elect autocrats.
    Welcome to US democracy of the last 100+ years, glad you could finally join us.
    Memes, memes never change.

  • #614
    Yablo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ovinomancer View Post
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    While I'm in agreement on the vote to reduce independent ethics review of Congress.
    Called it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yablo View Post
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    Cue the useful idiots who will say that the office was useless, but do not propose anything else to replace it. Nihilism works.
    I am not Gary Busey.

  • #615
    I'm hunting wabbits Michael Silverbane's Avatar
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    I wonder if there might be some other branch of government that is better suited to judge the ethics of our elected officials, rather than having the office that investigates the legislative work for the legislative. It juris doesn't seem very prudence.

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