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Thread: Random political thoughts that don't rate their own thread

  1. #16
    cowabunga! Remathilis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enkhidu View Post
    And yet gunshot rates are down in the years since we were kids (and so are gun ownership rates among younger people - older people haven't seen the same decline).
    Like to see your backup on that; most everything I saw says gunshot rates are UP, but Homicides are DOWN thanks to better life-saving techniques in ERs.

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014...31360684277812

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/...alth_care.html

    http://www.wdrb.com/story/24321940/h...ims-up-in-2013

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/0...aths-1981-2011 This one compares fatal/nonfatal gunshot records as well as bicycle accidents (since the NRA compared them) for 1981-2011.
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    Official Topic Approver COMMUNITY SUPPORTER Strithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xyxox View Post
    I think guns should be regulated much like cars. Gun registration from manufacture to disposal. Every gun owner must be licensed with regular checks and tests. Every gun owner must pass a test to own guns. Every gun owner must have liability insurance on every gun owned. Tests would include a basic psychological screening.
    I've had a driver's license for 29 years, and I've had them in three different states. I don't recall undergoing anything close to "regular checks and tests." It's generally quite difficult to lose your license unless you have repeated serious violations. To my knowledge no level of mental illness bars you from having a driver's license. It was rather difficult getting my grandmother's driver's license pulled. In fact, it was only after multiple (thankfully minor) accidents and constant calls from my mother that they pulled her license.

    If you're driving a single vehicle with a gross vehicle weight rating over 10,000 lb, or a combination (truck & trailer) with a GVWR over 19,000 lb, you need a commercial driver's license (CDL) to drive it unless it's an RV driven for non-commercial purposes (otherwise you can drive a massive motor home with just your regular class C driver's license. All you need to get a CDL is be able to pass a basic physical and drug test, and take a two-week course (unless you're wanting to get HAZMAT certified). There is no recurrent skills testing for CDL's, although it's easier to lose you CDL.

    In 2013 there were about 32,000 deaths from motor vehicle crashes in the United States. The overwhelming majority of them accidents, most of them avoidable: on average 2/3 of car accidents happen below the performance limits of the car. This means the vehicle was capable
    avoiding the collision, but the driver failed to do so. The most common causes are distraction or diminished capacity.

    In 2013 there were a little over 12,000 deaths from firearms. The majority of these are suicides, followed by intentional homicides, with accidental shootings a distant 3rd (fewer than 1,000 per year). There is no strong statistical correlation between firearms availability and violent crime rates (just as there's no link between capital punishment & other "get tough on crime" measures & violent crime rates).

    Overall violent crime rates have been falling. In some states, so much so that in Utah now if you get shot it's more likely the person gunning you down has a badge on his chest: http://www.sltrib.com/news/1842489-1...outpacing-gang

    From a public safety standpoint, automobiles are vastly more dangerous. You are statistically nearly 3 times more likely to die in a traffic accident than by being shot, and 6 times more likely to be in a traffic accident than shot, stabbed, raped, or assaulted (even if you're on a college campus). These incidents can be just as traumatizing as a shooting, and can alter one's life just as drastically. The violence is all the more terrifying because it's so random. Most violent crime victims know their assailants. Most traffic accidents involve total strangers.

    And yet, all you see on places like Slate.com are pieces like this: http://www.slate.com/articles/news_a..._shooting.html

    If the left does talk about traffic accidents, it's things like blaming Toyota for "mysterious" incidents where the driver says they pressed the brake pedal and the car suddenly accelerated forward, causing destruction and death. We are told that clearly this is some mysterious fault of the various Toyota models, and it has nothing to do with the fact that the drivers in these "sudden acceleration incidents" are always either very elderly or intoxicated. It can't possibly be that granny just had a senior moment and hit the wrong pedal, because korporashunz are teh suxxorz.


    Quote Originally Posted by Xyxox View Post
    Every gun owner must have liability insurance on every gun owned.
    This is a relatively new angle for the left on gun control. The only things this will achieve will be to A) make it more difficult for poor people to own guns and B) provide a ready source of income for "ambulance chaser" attorneys like it does with automobiles. It means that you either are just re-iterating a DNC talking point mindlessly, you hate poor people, or you are an ambulance chasing attorney.

    Kindly show me some evidence that requiring liability insurance has had any effect on traffic fatality rates and I might be inclined to think you aren't completely full of shit on this point.


    Quote Originally Posted by Xyxox View Post
    The only people who would have their right to own a gun checked are criminals and the mentally ill, which everybody agrees are people who should not have guns.
    These laws already exist in the United States. In fact Dylan Roof should have been barred from owning a gun but the powers that be forgot to enter the data into the computer. Much the same happened with Seung-Hui Cho, the shooter at Virginia Tech.

    Interestingly certain media outlets referred to Roof's acquisition of a weapon being do to a "loophole." Either the people making that assertion don't know what "loophole" means or they're so enamoured with the idea of the government always being right that they can't use the proper phrase of "bureaucratic incompetence."

    Indications are that the Lafayette shooter may have also been legally barred from gun ownership. Let's hope for the sake of progressive anti-gun zealots he didn't get his weapon by stealing it from a law enforcement officer (Like Kate Steinle's murderer did).


    Of course, we've gone over all of this repeatedly, and yet in spite of statistical evidence to the contrary progressives keep bringing up gun control because after all it really isn't about public safety. It's about asserting their dominance on people that don't share their opinions. Conservatives hate gun control, so by definition progressives have to love it (except for Bernie Sanders). It's also, sadly, the typical type of responsorial by partisan fanatics: the High Priests speak, and the Faithful enthusiastically parrot it. It's kind of like conservatives on gay marriage. Their opinion is objectively ludicrous, but they'll stick to it to the bitter end (or until the High Priests change the dogma du jour).

  • #18
    toxic Xyxox's Avatar
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    #1 I am required to be tested every five years in my state to keep my license.

    #2 Had John Russel Houser, or any other mass shooter, plowed into people with a vehicle instead of gunning them down, the required liability insurance would have covered the loss of life and injury costs. As is, their victims must pick up the tab for being gunned down.

    3) No, the laws do not exist, otherwise all three of the last three mass shooters would have been unable to acquire guns. All three had documented mental health issues, but still acquired guns. Two out of three had criminal records, yet they still acquired guns. The guns were acquired legally in all three cases.

    EDIT: I would also add, given a nationwide pool of roughly 300,000,000 guns already in existence, the annual cost of liability insurance per gun would be extremely low.
    Last edited by Xyxox; July 25th, 2015 at 05:00 PM.

  • #19
    Official Topic Approver COMMUNITY SUPPORTER Strithe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remathilis View Post
    Like to see your backup on that; most everything I saw says gunshot rates are UP, but Homicides are DOWN thanks to better life-saving techniques in ERs.

    http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB100014...31360684277812

    http://www.slate.com/blogs/moneybox/...alth_care.html

    http://www.wdrb.com/story/24321940/h...ims-up-in-2013

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/0...aths-1981-2011 This one compares fatal/nonfatal gunshot records as well as bicycle accidents (since the NRA compared them) for 1981-2011.
    Overall violent crime rates have been steadily falling since 1991, according to the FBI's uniform criminal database: https://www.fbi.gov/ (yeah, I know it's not a direct link).

    I'd note that most of those articles you link don't have much in the way of actual data, just cherry-picked quotes.

    Also the Kos article, which, thankfully actually tries to post some data, doesn't have a complete data on non-fatal shootings & accidents (it cuts before 2000).

    They also only list "fatal gunshots." No breakdown of how those gunshots were inflicted. Contrary to popular belief there are different ways you deal with violent crime (homicides & assaults), attempted suicides, and accidental shootings.

    The preliminary data for 2013 shows violent crime is still dropping for 2013:
    https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...tion_group.xls

    And for 2014:
    https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/uc...tion_group.xls

    EDIT: Rape seems to be going up depending on whether you use the FBI's "new" or "legacy" definition. Everything else is still trending downward.


    So I suspect even the Kos article is at best mistaken.

  • #20
    cowabunga! Remathilis's Avatar
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    So Faux just said that the shooter was "mentality ill". Same with the Charleston shooter.

    So far, the only evidence of motive has been racial hatred and anti-feminist beliefs.

    So did Faux just say White Supremacy and Anti-feminism is a mental illnesses?
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  • #21
    Religipster Enkhidu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remathilis View Post
    Like to see your backup on that; most everything I saw says gunshot rates are UP, but Homicides are DOWN thanks to better life-saving techniques in ERs.
    Pew Research - the ones I saw were silent on homicides, but counted gunshot crimes (regardless of outcome). Wouldn't surprise me if the stuff you saw was correct - the research I referenced certainly didn't contradict it. The research I saw centered on the slow decline of gunshot crimes since around '90 (and was silent on the cause).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xyxox View Post
    #1 I am required to be tested every five years in my state to keep my license.
    Uhhh...I'm not trying to challenge you or anything. But I have been driving in this state (we live in the same state) for....33 years?...and I can't recall I've ever been retested to retain my license. I can promise you I have not been retested in at least 10. Is this something they instituted on folks young than I?
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  • #23
    56% of an excuse nail bunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enkhidu View Post
    And yet gunshot rates are down in the years since we were kids (and so are gun ownership rates among younger people - older people haven't seen the same decline).
    SO the old folks will finally die off? Now that I too am getting old? Thanks Obama.


    Quote Originally Posted by Strithe View Post
    It means that you either are just re-iterating a DNC talking point mindlessly, you hate poor people, or you are an ambulance chasing attorney.
    You undersell Trip X, he could very easily be all three.

    Interestingly certain media outlets referred to Roof's acquisition of a weapon being do to a "loophole." Either the people making that assertion don't know what "loophole" means or they're so enamoured with the idea of the government always being right that they can't use the proper phrase of "bureaucratic incompetence."
    Neither would support the narrative that "We need moar guns laws!!111!!"

    Conservatives hate gun control, so by definition progressives have to love it (except for Bernie Sanders).
    He's so dreamy.



    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    Uhhh...I'm not trying to challenge you or anything. But I have been driving in this state (we live in the same state) for....33 years?...and I can't recall I've ever been retested to retain my license. I can promise you I have not been retested in at least 10. Is this something they instituted on folks young than I?
    You obviously fall under the 'grandfather clause'. Welcome to being old.
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  • #24
    toxic Xyxox's Avatar
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    If you do it early, all you need to pass is an eye test. If you are close to the end, you have to take the written test again. Twice now, I've waited too long and had to take the written test again. It's pretty easy to forget and miss it. I believe that is by design. I always think, "I've got another year", when I'm due that year. This entire conversation caused me to actually look at my expiration again and it is next year.

    But you still must pass the eye test at a minimum.
    Last edited by Xyxox; July 26th, 2015 at 01:03 AM.

  • #25
    Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xyxox View Post
    If you do it early, all you need to pass is an eye test. If you are close to the end, you have to take the written test again. Twice now, I've waited too long and had to take the written test again. It's pretty easy to forget and miss it. I believe that is by design. I always think, "I've got another year", when I'm due that year. This entire conversation caused me to actually look at my expiration again and it is next year.

    But you still must pass the eye test at a minimum.
    OK...you had me worried actually. Although the timing seems off to me. Don't they renew every four years? And it's every other time, I think, that you go for the eye test. And to be completely honest, I didn't equate that eye test with what you were saying under the terms " I am required to be tested every five years in my state to keep my license".

    So to be clear...we're not talking about a written test, or a driving test, but an eye exam? Because I've renewed mine AFTER it was expired, and took no test whatsoever....
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  • #26
    I'm in Illinois as well, and I've had to take the vision test several times, and the written test at least twice in the past fifteen years , iirc. I do have a motorcycle license which may have some effect in that, though.
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  • #27
    First Day On The Internet Calamari Face's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Charlemagne View Post
    I'm in Illinois as well, and I've had to take the vision test several times, and the written test at least twice in the past fifteen years , iirc. I do have a motorcycle license which may have some effect in that, though.
    Anyone who suggests Xyxox isn't a liar is a liar!



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  • #28
    I don't FEEL wealthy. Ulrik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remathilis View Post
    So Faux just said that the shooter was "mentality ill". Same with the Charleston shooter.

    So far, the only evidence of motive has been racial hatred and anti-feminist beliefs.

    So did Faux just say White Supremacy and Anti-feminism is a mental illnesses?
    Nono. The diagnostic criteria for being mentally ill for a white male is to go on a shooting spree.

    The same as the definition of a terrorist is to be a muslim and try to kill people. A thug is defined as a black male trying to kill people.

  • #29
    Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Calamari Face View Post
    Anyone who suggests Xyxox isn't a liar is a liar!
    To be frank, I thought Xyxox was being disingenuous. I thought he was trying to imply something. Perhaps I'm wrong, but I doubt anyone reading the statement, "I am required to be tested every five years to keep my license" took that as meaning an eye exam to make sure you can still see is what was meant.


    Now, add to that the fact that my experience in the very same state is quite different than what is being described, and my radar pings (not a euphemism). For example, it's clear on the Illinois DMV site that, in fact, this requirement does not exist..if you are a Safe Driver:
    If you are a Safe Driver, you need to visit a Driver Service Facility only once every eight years to renew your license.
    And at that point, apparently the only test is an eye exam.


    So...my conclusion is that some combination is true:
    Xyxox is being disingenuous.
    Xyxox is a bad driver.
    Xyxox is talking about a different license (as KC points out, motorcycle...or as Strithe alludes, a CDL)


    Now, I'm just trying to clarify. I'm not one to jump to "Liar!". There must be something to account for the discrepancy in our experience. Why do I care? So I know that if I can trust the rest of what Xyxox is suggesting about regulating guns. Why? because I'm actually interested in this approach...and I'm far from a gun nut or a gun-control nut.


    For example, Xyxox's statement about liability insurance requirements is, to me, interesting...so I looked into Illinois rules. I'm required to carry $50,000 of liability insurance to cover accidents that involve injuries/death to more than one person. That's up, in that last couple of years, by 25% from the previous level of $40,000. When the legislation for this increase was up for debate, there was some push back from reps covering districts with low-income folks, because the estimated $75/year increase was considered onerous. This leads me to support Strihe's implication that this might mean that poor people will be disproportionally impacted by this kind of regulation. Also, I'm wondering what those minimum levels would look like. Let's take the recent shooting in LA. there were, what, 3 fataltities and 7 injured? Using that same $50,000 level, that means an average remuneration of just over $7,100 per person. That barely covers an emergency room visit for a kidnety stone. So what should the levels look like for gun ownership?


    BTW...I'm not immediately against the proposals. I'm trying to get a feel for what they might look like when implemented...ya know...have a discussion....learn...form an opinion...


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    Last edited by Feanor; July 26th, 2015 at 04:57 PM.
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  • #30
    56% of an excuse nail bunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    Sometimes I forget, that's the purpose of the Senate....
    Liar! LIAR! That is not the purpose of the Senate! You take that back!
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