Thread: Random political thoughts that don't rate their own thread

  1. #196
    cowabunga! Remathilis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nail bunny View Post
    So... an event which occurred after the penning of the Constituion is being sited as disagreement for a reason article two was penned.

    You do understand how time works yes?
    I'm saying Mr. Founding Father who watched over the writing of the Constitution was quick to suppress a rebellion (one where citizens took up arms to overthrow their government over taxation-without-representation) when HE was to be on the receiving end of ouster.

    The notion the the 2nd amendment was designed to allow citizens armed insurrection is a ludicrous piece of Alex Jones-level crackpottery. Owning guns for hunting and defense? Sure. To be conscripted into militias? Most definitely. To overthrow the US government? No way in fucking hell.
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  • #197
    Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remathilis View Post
    I'm saying Mr. Founding Father who watched over the writing of the Constitution was quick to suppress a rebellion (one where citizens took up arms to overthrow their government over taxation-without-representation) when HE was to be on the receiving end of ouster.

    The notion the the 2nd amendment was designed to allow citizens armed insurrection is a ludicrous piece of Alex Jones-level crackpottery. Owning guns for hunting and defense? Sure. To be conscripted into militias? Most definitely. To overthrow the US government? No way in fucking hell.
    You should read some of the debates on the amendments...hell the second was apparently written around the time of the whiskey rebellion, so the latter might very well have influenced the former. But it's pretty clear that concern over the tyranny of a federal government, and the individual's right to resist that oppression (whether or not they actually could) was at the heart of the 2nd.
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  • #198
    56% of an excuse nail bunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remathilis View Post
    I'm saying Mr. Founding Father who watched over the writing of the Constitution was quick to suppress a rebellion (one where citizens took up arms to overthrow their government over taxation-without-representation) when HE was to be on the receiving end of ouster.
    So? They were afforded the right to be armed to prevent a tyranny, that they couldn't actually organize strongly enough to overthrow what they thought to be tyranny doesn't reduce that right.


    And even Washington was hesitant to use armed force in that situation, that he may have felt it was inevitable and necessary is not the issue.
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  • #199
    cowabunga! Remathilis's Avatar
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    I hope this guy wins, he'd be the most \m/ METAL \m/ person in the US Senate.

    http://www.orlandosentinel.com/featu...005-story.html

    (Bonus points for being from Florida AND trying to oust Rubio).
    Last edited by Remathilis; October 5th, 2015 at 08:50 PM.
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  • #200
    can't be bothered Eldorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nail bunny View Post
    That's not why the Second Amendment was as strongly worded as it was.
    Sure it is. The primary reason for the second amendment was so the States would be able to quickly raise a militia in response to the sort of frontier type threats that were commonplace back then. If the people had their own weapons, then they could be raised quicker and would have a better understanding of their weapons, and it would be cheaper. You gotta remember that the late 18th century was the period in time when the gap between professional soldier and militia was lowest (among agrarian societies. Horse nomads, on the other hand..)

    It's because yokels with their own firearms were able to overthrow the government when it was needed. The future ability to do so should there again be a need was ingrained into the second amendment.
    This is also sort of correct. The Founding Fathers, incorrectly as it turns out, feared that their elected government could turn to tyranny as easily as the autocratic governments of Europe. At the time, as I said, the difference between an armed peasant and a professional soldier was at or near an all time low, and the peasant rebellions in Europe prior to the Revolutionary War had mainly failed because the peasants had terrible equipment.

    But as it turned out, overthrowing your dutifully elected government hasn't been necessary (not even during the Civil War, as the State governments were still dutifully elected and acting on the will of the people). And as the gap between professional soldier and armed peasant has considerably widened, having a population armed with the kind of weapons individuals can afford (no one is buying fucking tanks, grow up) is of doubtful utility even if it became necessary. The only entities capable of maintaining sufficient weapons of war would be corporations, anyways, and if there's anything tinfoil hat types should trust less than their elected officials, it would be the corrupt motherfuckers who do their best to buy elections.

    So my point stands: the practical utility the 2nd amendment was supposed to provide the American people is no longer valid, and the only remaining argument for keeping it is "fuck off, I like guns". But I lean very Libertarian, so I'm not saying that that is an invalid argument. If we as a people decide that the violence resulting from readily available weapons is worth the risk vs the enjoyment of owning weapons, then by all means we should own weapons. I even own a couple, tho I've not fired then in years. I find hunting incredibly dull, and despite my father's efforts to get me into it.

  • #201
    56% of an excuse nail bunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldorian View Post
    This is also sort of correct.
    It's absolutely correct. That there are other pressing needs does not diminish that.

    The Founding Fathers, incorrectly as it turns out, feared that their elected government could turn to tyranny as easily as the autocratic governments of Europe.
    Well yes. It's only taken 200 years to get to the point where the corps (unthought of in the day) could be in position to start taking over. But we still need a capacity to rise up if the need comes. Surrendering all weapons is dumb.
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  • #202
    Quote Originally Posted by Remathilis View Post
    The notion the the 2nd amendment was designed to allow citizens armed insurrection is a ludicrous piece of Alex Jones-level crackpottery. Owning guns for hunting and defense? Sure. To be conscripted into militias? Most definitely. To overthrow the US government? No way in fucking hell.
    Do you have some kind of counter-evidence to support your denouncement, other than calling it Alex Jones-level crackpottery?
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  • #203
    Religipster Enkhidu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Remathilis View Post
    ...The notion the the 2nd amendment was designed to allow citizens armed insurrection is a ludicrous piece of Alex Jones-level crackpottery. Owning guns for hunting and defense? Sure. To be conscripted into militias? Most definitely. To overthrow the US government? No way in fucking hell.
    There's a school of thought that says it's both, actually. Take a look at the English Bill of Rights (and the rights to bear arms therein) and the reason that right was enshrined in the first place. The entire idea was a backlash against James II attempted disarming of Protestants before the Glorious Revolution.

  • #204
    First Day On The Internet Calamari Face's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldorian View Post
    The 2nd amendment made a lot of sense when it was written, because there were still bandits and barbarians and a frontier and oppressive nobles and slave revolts. Now that getting raided isn't a likely occurrence, it's largely outlived it's usefulness. The only remaining reason for keeping the people armed is because they chose to be. It is no longer practical.
    British nobility were dispossessed (or bought out when they moved to Canada), and the Constitution prohibits establishing a new nobility.

    Suppression of slave revolts is not a legitimate objective.



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  • #205
    First Day On The Internet Calamari Face's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldorian View Post
    But as it turned out, overthrowing your dutifully elected government hasn't been necessary (not even during the Civil War, as the State governments were still dutifully elected and acting on the will of the people).
    The bigoted racist fucks of Wilmington, NC in 1898 disagree.



    I don't think CF and I agree on much at all, and probably not this. -- Ovinomancer, The Senate, 28 June 2011

    I find myself in full agreement with CF. -- Ovinomancer, The Senate, 1 July 2011


    Larry Sanders 2016!

  • #206
    Quote Originally Posted by Remathilis View Post
    That said, I'm not shocked that travel guides highlight our best: people don't travel to Shitholes.
    New York. Chicago. Philly. San Francisco. These places are not particularly known for nice people, and all of them meet at least some criteria of a "Shithole." But I'm guessing these travelers are basing their appraisals much more on big cities like those than Middle America.
    J. Harshaw: A desire not to butt into other people’s business is at least eighty percent of all human wisdom.
    Duke: You butt into other people’s business. All the time.
    J. Harshaw: Who said I was wise?
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  • #207
    Feanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeigeLantern View Post
    New York. Chicago. Philly. San Francisco. These places are not particularly known for nice people, and all of them meet at least some criteria of a "Shithole." But I'm guessing these travelers are basing their appraisals much more on big cities like those than Middle America.
    you take back what you said about Chicago....you take it right back!
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  • #208
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanor View Post
    you take back what you said about Chicago....you take it right back!
    Or Feanor and I will come over there and beat you the hell up!
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  • #209
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Charlemagne View Post
    Or Feanor and I will come over there and beat you the hell up!
    Not me...personally..but I know a guy...over by there....
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  • #210
    pug cat! the Jester's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeigeLantern View Post
    New York. Chicago. Philly. San Francisco. These places are not particularly known for nice people, and all of them meet at least some criteria of a "Shithole." But I'm guessing these travelers are basing their appraisals much more on big cities like those than Middle America.
    Have you ever been to any of those places?
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