Thread: Random political thoughts that don't rate their own thread

  1. #166
    Not a pony! GreyOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enkhidu View Post
    You've jumped to an incorrect conclusion about my position. I didn't mention "more guns" because I don't think "more guns" stops crime. But gun control laws don't actually affect the kinds of people that commit the bulk of gun crimes near me. They get their guns illegally already.



    That's a non-sequiter to my statement, and doesn't actually refute it. Very frankly, I'm more worried about getting shot by a heroin dealer/addict than I am a mass shooter.
    Really? I can easily make the short jump from what you said. Also, are you black? Real question.

    Most illegal gun deaths involve black people. And that in itself, beyond the ridiculous gun culture embraced by the U.S of Fucking A. is caused by much larger societal problems than the availability of illegal guns.

    And arguing that gun deaths you're worried about involve mostly illegal firearms is NOT a valid argument against strict gun control laws.
    Last edited by GreyOne; October 4th, 2015 at 09:57 PM.
    GreyOne - "At what point do enough innocent bodies stack up where you decide your Second Amendment isn't worth the paper required to wipe a medium-sized bowel movement?"

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  • #167
    Not a pony! GreyOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enkhidu View Post
    You've jumped to an incorrect conclusion about my position. I didn't mention "more guns" because I don't think "more guns" stops crime. But gun control laws don't actually affect the kinds of people that commit the bulk of gun crimes near me. They get their guns illegally already.



    That's a non-sequiter to my statement, and doesn't actually refute it. Very frankly, I'm more worried about getting shot by a heroin dealer/addict than I am a mass shooter.
    Really, you should be the most fearful of getting shot on purpose or accidentally by someone you now. Statistically speaking. Unless you're a black man that is.
    Last edited by GreyOne; October 4th, 2015 at 09:54 PM.
    GreyOne - "At what point do enough innocent bodies stack up where you decide your Second Amendment isn't worth the paper required to wipe a medium-sized bowel movement?"

    Ovinomancer - "As for your questions, more."

  • #168
    Religipster Enkhidu's Avatar
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    GreyOne, I'm not black. I couldn't be considered a minority in any way, really. I'm even middle class. But I do live in a multi-racial neighborhood that's in one of the poorer sections of town. My neighborhood doesn't have as bad a reputation among those that live in the suburbs as the predominantly black neighborhood on the other side of town, but does among the police (if that makes any sense to you). That's mainly a holdover from past years, and the horrible racial divide that plagues most American rust-belt cities.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreyOne View Post
    And arguing that gun deaths you're worried about involve mostly illegal firearms is NOT a valid argument against strict gun control laws.
    I'm not using my position as a argument against strict gun control laws - I actually am in favor of some pretty draconian rules for them myself (ones that I don't think would make most Americans happy). I am saying that the gun control laws most commonly proposed won't affect me and mine in the ways which those who propose them claim, though.

    Also, I don't need to argue against gun control laws. The 2nd Amendment, without any help from me, strictly forbids abridgement of the bearing of arms. Certainly, local and state authorities have done so for a very, very long time, but local and state authorities also got away with Jim Crow laws and "No Irish Need Apply" signs for years in obvious violation of the 14th and 15th. The courts get things wrong sometimes.

    As for me? I'd rather see:
    1) Denationalization of the guard back to state authority to reestablish state militias without integral ties to the federal standing army (yes, this will mean a marked reduction in both headcount and overseas military action)
    2) A wider array of armaments allowed for individual ownership
    3) For all owners of those armaments to be automatic members of the state and county (parish) militia, and to report themselves and their weaponry to the local armory(ies)
    4) Regular (annual or bi-annual) mandatory training on use of armaments for militia members; mandatory inspections for armaments

    Basically, everyone who wants a weapon can have one, but they must report to the militia officers who make sure that the owners prove the can effectively use those weapons and stow them safely. Also, so the militia officers more easily identify those individuals most likely to cause issues (due to mental illness, etc).

    But that would require us to throw out all the previous case law and declare local/state ordinances null if they are/were in conflict.

  • #169
    Not a pony! GreyOne's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enkhidu View Post
    GreyOne, I'm not black. I couldn't be considered a minority in any way, really. I'm even middle class. But I do live in a multi-racial neighborhood that's in one of the poorer sections of town. My neighborhood doesn't have as bad a reputation among those that live in the suburbs as the predominantly black neighborhood on the other side of town, but does among the police (if that makes any sense to you). That's mainly a holdover from past years, and the horrible racial divide that plagues most American rust-belt cities.
    Interesting. I did know that Dayton is a heavy crime city.

    I'm not using my position as a argument against strict gun control laws - I actually am in favor of some pretty draconian rules for them myself (ones that I don't think would make most Americans happy). I am saying that the gun control laws most commonly proposed won't affect me and mine in the ways which those who propose them claim, though.

    Also, I don't need to argue against gun control laws. The 2nd Amendment, without any help from me, strictly forbids abridgement of the bearing of arms. Certainly, local and state authorities have done so for a very, very long time, but local and state authorities also got away with Jim Crow laws and "No Irish Need Apply" signs for years in obvious violation of the 14th and 15th. The courts get things wrong sometimes.
    The second amendment does not have to be the end all and be all of the matter. A short-sided and easily manipulated document raised to holy scripture.

    As for me? I'd rather see:
    1) Denationalization of the guard back to state authority to reestablish state militias without integral ties to the federal standing army (yes, this will mean a marked reduction in both headcount and overseas military action)
    For most of its life I believe that's what the 2nd Amendment was for: militias. Not individual gun ownership.

    2) A wider array of armaments allowed for individual ownership
    What are you kidding? What justification is there for that?
    3) For all owners of those armaments to be automatic members of the state and county (parish) militia, and to report themselves and their weaponry to the local armory(ies)
    Alright I see where you're going with that. I don't agree about the armaments though.
    4) Regular (annual or bi-annual) mandatory training on use of armaments for militia members; mandatory inspections for armaments [/quote]
    How about mandatory mental health tests?

    Basically, everyone who wants a weapon can have one, but they must report to the militia officers who make sure that the owners prove the can effectively use those weapons and stow them safely. Also, so the militia officers more easily identify those individuals most likely to cause issues (due to mental illness, etc).
    That's a bunch of moving parts and I don't see American gun owners in general being down for that. You'll already lose all the people who don't trust the government and don't want anybody to have their gun info.

    But that would require us to throw out all the previous case law and declare local/state ordinances null if they are/were in conflict.
    I imagine so. Thanks for your thoughts though.

    I don't see a workable solution for you America. Your guns are too much a part of you. You're screwed.
    GreyOne - "At what point do enough innocent bodies stack up where you decide your Second Amendment isn't worth the paper required to wipe a medium-sized bowel movement?"

    Ovinomancer - "As for your questions, more."

  • #170
    cowabunga! Remathilis's Avatar
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    Yeah, I can't imagine compulsory "militia" service as a prerequisite for gun ownership. There is no way that they will allow the government to inspect their guns. Tinfoil types would revolt.

    That said, I don't think it would aid much. There are too many factors (racism, poverty, fear/paranoia, individualism, distrust of Establishment, celebrity status of criminals, emotion over intelligence, easy access to mind-affecting drugs and easy access to cheap firearms) has all lead to a "life is cheap, you're on your own" attitude here.

    It's going to take a radical change in American culture to reverse this.
    America. Fueled by Cancer.

  • #171
    56% of an excuse nail bunny's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Farside View Post
    The Constitution also forbids abridging freedom of speech, but there are plenty of laws limiting speech.
    Which are also clearly wrong.
    I can delete you, one click and you're overwritten.

  • #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by nail bunny View Post
    Which are also clearly wrong.
    Nah, some of them are good. Laws against libel, slander, true threats, that kind of thing are alright.

  • #173
    cowabunga! Remathilis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ovinomancer View Post
    Nah, some of them are good. Laws against libel, slander, true threats, that kind of thing are alright.
    You're trying to convince a gator those are good things?
    America. Fueled by Cancer.

  • #174
    Quote Originally Posted by Remathilis View Post
    That said, I don't think it would aid much. There are too many factors (racism, poverty, fear/paranoia, individualism, distrust of Establishment, celebrity status of criminals, emotion over intelligence, easy access to mind-affecting drugs and easy access to cheap firearms) has all lead to a "life is cheap, you're on your own" attitude here.

    It's going to take a radical change in American culture to reverse this.
    This is a colossal misconception Americans have about themselves, which ironically is further evidence that Americans are some of the most altruistic people on the planet.

    Here are three travel guides from foreign countries about traveling in the US:

    From France:
    1. Be prepared for an onslaught of friendliness. You may be approached by a stranger on the street asking you where you got your coat. Passersby greet each other cheerfully in the street. Your neighbor may compliment you on the curve of your muscles, and the cashier at the supermarket may ask you what you are doing with this beautiful weekend (and the three cases of rosé you've purchased).

    2.
    A passerby stumbles and sprawls in the street, an old lady can barely control Brutus at the end of a leash, a small tricycle driver loses control of his vehicle. Politeness means, of course, that you come and help all these people. American culture wants you to quit all your activities and rescue the unfortunate. In America, you cannot pretend to not have noticed all these little quirks. You must rush to provide assistance to all who need it. [Source]

    Whether in the street, public transport or any public place, we must adopt this reflex. Hard, tough, because it must be done without looking first to the right and left to see if someone is already trying to help the person in trouble. In short, it must be done spontaneously and with good heart. I like it when it happens: for example my keys jumped out of my bike basket when I hit a hole, and the Americans rushed at me to help. It's cool. I smile.

    4. Rejoicing in the presence of children or pets. This is the correlate of "smile to strangers," it is mandatory to have a smile or a little "how cute" tilt to your head if you come across a child or pet. Even if they are ugly.

    6. If it should happen I need to leave my stuff unattended when I'm in the coffee shop, I just ask someone to look at it for the time it takes for me to go to the toilet. When I forget something in my bike basket, it is still there, even at night. And when you have packages waiting for you at home, they remain in the lobby and no one takes them. It may seem normal and civic way of doing it, but I am surprised. Since coming to America, I've become much less suspicious. [Source]

    From Russia:
    10. It all starts with a smile. “U.S. etiquette requires that you smile in each and every situation," says the site
    Этикет США. "If you want to travel to America, be prepared to give a smile not only to friends and acquaintances, but also to all passers-by, in shops, to the staff at the hotel, police on the streets, etc." Don't whine about your problems or the troubles in your life, either: "Sharing in this country can only be positive emotions—sorrows and frustrations are impermissible. In the U.S. you only complain to acquaintances in the most extreme cases. Serious problems are for close friends and relatives only."

    This cheerfulness isn't a put-on, the site notes. "Americans: they are a nation that truly feels happy. These people get used to smiling from the cradle onwards, so they do not pretend to be cheerful. The desire for a successful happy life is inculcated from childhood.”

    17. At the table is better to avoid talking about politics and religion, as the United States is a country of Puritan values. In the straight-line American culture there is a taboo forbidding calling out the physical defects of another person. This is probably due to the constant desire of Americans to always be in great shape and look young.

    From Japan:
    3. Manners with cars in America are really damn good. Japanese people should be embarrassed when they look at how good car manners are in America. You must wait whenever you cross an intersection for the traffic light. People don’t get pushy to go first. Except for some people, everyone keeps exactly to the speed limit. America is a car society, but their damn good manners are not limited to cars.

    4. Cashiers are slow. Abysmally slow compared to Japan. I get frustrated when I’m in a hurry. Americans wait leisurely even if you’re in the special checkout for buying just a little something. I thought Americans were going to be quite impatient, but in reality they are extremely laid back. I thought about what I should do with my time while waiting in the grocery matrix, and began to speak at length with other guests.

    10.
    In Japan, there is great fear of failure and mistakes in front of other people. It is better to do nothing and avoid being criticized than to taste the humiliation of failure. As a result, there are things we wanted to do, but did not, and often regret.

    In America, you can make mistakes, fail, and it doesn’t matter. It is a fundamental feeling that to sometimes be incorrect is natural. In addition, rather than thinking about mistakes and failures, American’s have curiosity and say, "Let’s try anyway!"
    J. Harshaw: A desire not to butt into other people’s business is at least eighty percent of all human wisdom.
    Duke: You butt into other people’s business. All the time.
    J. Harshaw: Who said I was wise?
    Stranger in a Strange Land by Robert Heinlein

  • #175
    Religipster Enkhidu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreyOne View Post
    Interesting. I did know that Dayton is a heavy crime city.
    The I-70/I-75 interchange has always attracted drug dealers - easy access to large portion of the midwest. The latest heroin wave is hitting the area particularly hard. Add in a population dip and aging infrastructure (our % loss of population in the 2000s was staggering), and you have a recipe for high crime rates, even in the first and second ring suburbs.


    Quote Originally Posted by G1
    The second amendment does not have to be the end all and be all of the matter. A short-sided and easily manipulated document raised to holy scripture.
    You can make that same claim about most of the Constitution - it was written at a simpler time when fewer assholes had access to the levers of power (not as a %, mind you, just in total numbers)..

    Quote Originally Posted by G1
    ...I imagine so. Thanks for your thoughts though.

    I don't see a workable solution for you America. Your guns are too much a part of you. You're screwed.
    I don't see things as doomy and gloomy on the gun front. I think our increased attention on the phenom goes hand in hand with the slight increase in violent crimes in the country overall, which I attribute to the historically shitty domestic economy and the Millennials (not because the generation is worse than those that came before, but because there are so many of them).

  • #176
    cowabunga! Remathilis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BeigeLantern View Post
    This is a colossal misconception Americans have about themselves, which ironically is further evidence that Americans are some of the most altruistic people on the planet.
    America is a colossal paradox. We're enormously giving when a natural disaster hits, but then cut social safety nets for the poor, elderly, and ill. We are polite and kind to people face to face, but have thousands of cases of road rage. We are a melting pot of people that is stoked with racism and bigotry. We have some of the smartest people and best universities, but one of the lowest literacy rates of the first world.

    That said, I'm not shocked that travel guides highlight our best: people don't travel to Shitholes. America does have lots of great things, but the bad are being highlighted and amplified to the point its becoming hard to focus on the good.
    America. Fueled by Cancer.

  • #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by GreyOne View Post
    The second amendment does not have to be the end all and be all of the matter. A short-sided and easily manipulated document raised to holy scripture.
    Correct! Aside from its various (mis)interpretations, it has instructions for how to change the fucking document....written right there in it. It's fucking genius.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreyOne View Post
    For most of its life I believe that's what the 2nd Amendment was for: militias. Not individual gun ownership.
    See Previous: "(mis)interpretations".

    Here's the thing...you can change the document. You don't need to interpret it...you could remove the 2nd altogether, or alter it as Justice John Paul Stevens wants. But that requires a pretty high threshold. Why? Because the concept was to put in place a set of "backstop" rules - these are fundamental principles...not the entire set of rules for the nation...let the fucking States deal with those (for various reasons). So if you want to change it, here's how to do so...but you better be damn sure you want to. We just aren't damn sure we want to...yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by GreyOne View Post
    That's a bunch of moving parts and I don't see American gun owners in general being down for that. You'll already lose all the people who don't trust the government and don't want anybody to have their gun info.
    I think you might be surprised by this. See, the goal was to not put too much power in the hands of the federal government. So gun owners might be just fine with State level reporting...as long as the state did not infringe on the fundamental right to have the firearm(s) in the first place.

    Unfortunately, it's not a question easily answered and not the least of which is because nobody will ask it. These are the kinds of possible solutions that get lost in the noise.
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  • #178
    can't be bothered Eldorian's Avatar
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    The 2nd amendment made a lot of sense when it was written, because there were still bandits and barbarians and a frontier and oppressive nobles and slave revolts. Now that getting raided isn't a likely occurrence, it's largely outlived it's usefulness. The only remaining reason for keeping the people armed is because they chose to be. It is no longer practical.

  • #179
    Quote Originally Posted by Remathilis View Post
    America is a colossal paradox. We're enormously giving when a natural disaster hits, but then cut social safety nets for the poor, elderly, and ill. We are polite and kind to people face to face, but have thousands of cases of road rage. We are a melting pot of people that is stoked with racism and bigotry. We have some of the smartest people and best universities, but one of the lowest literacy rates of the first world.

    That said, I'm not shocked that travel guides highlight our best: people don't travel to Shitholes. America does have lots of great things, but the bad are being highlighted and amplified to the point its becoming hard to focus on the good.
    Quote Originally Posted by Remathilis View Post
    America is a colossal paradox. We're enormously giving when a natural disaster hits, but then cut social safety nets for the poor, elderly, and ill. We are polite and kind to people face to face, but have thousands of cases of road rage. We are a melting pot of people that is stoked with racism and bigotry. We have some of the smartest people and best universities, but one of the lowest literacy rates of the first world.
    More misconception. We are not stoked with racism and bigotry. And one of the lowest literacy rates of the first world?! It's 97.9-99.99% (https://www.cia.gov/library/publicat...orld-factbook/)

    At worst, Americans are generous and compassionate in the concrete and not in the abstract. For instance, over half a million Nazi POWs were interned in small American towns. The Americans who dealt with them responded immediately with compassion and kindness and many friendships and a romance or two were struck. But when a pundit got wind of how well we were treating out POWs, it became a national outrage. Americans are incredibly compassionate to people they're looking in the eye (Which links to my long-standing belief that the death of neighborhoods is the root of 80% of our problems).

    I believe most of our altruism actually stems from that same individualism, because along with it comes individual responsibility. When the government takes 60% of your money and assumes all responsibility for social services, it's incredibly easy to say "I pay my taxes, so deal with it." Maybe that's why Americans donate more to private charity, even toward foreign disasters, than anyone else in the world. And the demographic that donates the most and is the most likely to volunteer is also the demographic likely to want low taxes: middle class conservative Christians.

    My branding of libertarianism (with a small "l") says "It's not up the government to make it right. It's up to me."
    Last edited by BeigeLantern; October 5th, 2015 at 03:01 PM.
    J. Harshaw: A desire not to butt into other people’s business is at least eighty percent of all human wisdom.
    Duke: You butt into other people’s business. All the time.
    J. Harshaw: Who said I was wise?
    Stranger in a Strange Land by Robert Heinlein

  • #180
    Quote Originally Posted by Eldorian View Post
    The 2nd amendment made a lot of sense when it was written, because there were still bandits and barbarians and a frontier and oppressive nobles and slave revolts. Now that getting raided isn't a likely occurrence, it's largely outlived it's usefulness. The only remaining reason for keeping the people armed is because they chose to be. It is no longer practical.
    The government should never have access to force that I don't.

    Yes, that means I should be able to own a tank.
    J. Harshaw: A desire not to butt into other people’s business is at least eighty percent of all human wisdom.
    Duke: You butt into other people’s business. All the time.
    J. Harshaw: Who said I was wise?
    Stranger in a Strange Land by Robert Heinlein

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