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Thread: Eldorian and Mistwell argue about religion.

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    can't be bothered Eldorian's Avatar
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    Eldorian and Mistwell argue about religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by CarlZog View Post
    I expected them to depict the historical trouble that science has had with the Catholic church and the difficulty of finding acceptance for new ideas in dogmatic cultures, but the church leaders were definitely characterized as maliciously evil bad guys. I'm an atheist and I thought it was over the top.
    Americans need to be told their religious ideas are dumb. They need to be shown that others had dumb ideas before them, and those dumb ideas are now safely ignored even by current people with dumb ideas. Personally, I think Dr. Tyson treads too softly in regards to dumb religious ideas, but we need people like him just as we need people like Dawkins and Hitchens.

 

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    That's Wacist! Mistwell's Avatar
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    I consider myself religious (or at least, I have a religion), and I didn't find this episode overly anti-religious. I don't think it's anti-religious to point out where religions have sometimes failed and done bad things in history. Organized religion is not God, it's just humans. Indeed, making it clear it was a "bad thing" as opposed to "non-judgmental thing that happened in history to some soul-less intelligent animate bag of meat with a name" seems more religious to me than non-religious

    Also, Neil Degreasse Tyson doesn't like being called an Athiest, he specifically rejects your label, he went out of his way to make a video to tell you to stop calling him an atheist, and if you need to call him something you can call him an agnostic (but he'd rather not be any category at all). So stop trying to recruit him into your weird cult, which he implies is a huge waste of your time when you could be doing something more science-focused with your time than dwelling on non-religion which he equates with dwelling on being a non-golfer
    Last edited by Mistwell; March 19th, 2014 at 03:56 PM.
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    can't be bothered Eldorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistwell View Post
    Also, Neil Degreasse Tyson doesn't like being called an Athiest, he specifically rejects your label, he went out of his way to make a video to tell you to stop calling him an atheist, and if you need to call him something you can call him an agnostic (but he'd rather not be any category at all). So stop trying to recruit him into your weird cult, which he implies is a huge waste of your time when you could be doing something more science-focused with your time than dwelling on non-religion which he equates with dwelling on being a non-golfer
    It's because of people like you that Dr. Tyson has to reject the label. You label it as a "weird cult" as if you weren't in a glass house, and he has to deal with people like you in his job as a science communicator.

    P.S. If your god existed and gave 2 shits about humanity, you really think this is how the world would look?
    worldmapsmall.jpg

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    That's Wacist! Mistwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldorian View Post
    It's because of people like you that Dr. Tyson has to reject the label.
    No, he is perfectly capable of rejecting the label without anyone influencing his decision. Your assumption that his opinion must be a factor of him being weak willed and influenced by believers is, I think, a bit insulting to the man. I get it, you have a vested interest in your non-belief system, and you want to recruit people to your weird cult like any other cultist. But, I think the man has earned enough credibility in his life to be taken for his word without some stupid conspiracy theory nonsense doubting him. He was doing just fine before the video, and doing just fine after the video, and I think him declaring what his actual belief system is, and that it is not atheism, has had no impact at all on his career. Is everyone else in this thread who agreed with his opinion on that also just being influenced by people like me too?

    You label it as a "weird cult" as if you weren't in a glass house
    No dummy, I do it ironically. Which I think was obvious to the non-aspie crowd here.

    and he has to deal with people like you in his job as a science communicator.
    He doesn't "have" to deal with anyone. The man is wealthy, and begged by thousands to come speak. But you go on living in denial to justify your non-belief system. Why not, all the other weird cultists do it. Go on thinking "if only people saw what I see in the world, they would understand and believe like me! Those who don't agree with me are either dumb, or pressured by the dumb!"

    P.S. If your god existed and gave 2 shits about humanity, you really think this is how the world would look?
    worldmapsmall.jpg
    I think I am just an advanced ape who would have no clue what the world should look like if an omnipotent being cared about it. That you think you do know goes to once more show how you put your own ego above reason.

    Also, and I tried to explain this earlier to you (because you obviously don't know anything about Judaism), Jews don't think you have to be a Jew to go to "heaven". Indeed, in Judaism, it's technically easier to go to "heaven" as a non-Jew (because you don't have the added burden of being one of the Chosen people, which is actually more of a curse than benefit in many respects). And, we have a Pious Non-believer category even for Jews. But bottom line, nothing in Judaism would dictate that the world would be, or should be, composed of mostly or all Jews, and it's perfectly in line with the religion for the World to be made up of many different religions and the non-religious.

    In Judaism, God wants you to behave in a good manner, not to be Jewish. Most Jews view themselves more like the docents at a museum - you're not there to see the docents, they don't want you to become a docent (and if you ask they will tell you the pay's crappy and the position is unappreciated), but they can help you understand the exhibits better.

    It's one reason why you don't see Jews preaching on street corners or knocking on your doors trying to convert you. Converting is actually pretty difficult, not particularly encouraged, and mostly because you married into it and want your kids to have parents with the same religion. Instead, most Jews believe in things like Education, Science, Literature, Music, Theater, Art, History, Economics, Entertainment, and Politics. That's where most "Jewish money" goes, because most Jews think those are the institutions which best promote, or have the most potential to best communicate, "good behavior". Look at the donor list for most museums, schools, thinktanks, research facilities, theaters, etc... and you will probably see Jewish names there, in a disproportionate number to the percentage of Jews in society. It's not a coincidence, nor is it a coincidence you see so many Jews getting advanced degrees (particularly in the sciences), and entering professions in those fields.

    Anyway, I know that won't change your mind in general on this topic Eldorian, but maybe it will clear up a bit of your misinformation concerning the quantity of Jews in the world as some sort of sign of success or failure. It's not really particularly meaningful, when talking about a religion that doesn't think it's the One True Way, but merely one way, and a way that's simply trying to help all the other ways get to the same good result. Even the ways that involve no God at all.
    Last edited by Mistwell; March 25th, 2014 at 12:18 AM.
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    can't be bothered Eldorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistwell View Post
    No, he is perfectly capable of rejecting the label without anyone influencing his decision. Your assumption that his opinion must be a factor of him being weak willed and influenced by believers is, I think, a bit insulting to the man. I get it, you have a vested interest in your non-belief system, and you want to recruit people to your weird cult like any other cultist. But, I think the man has earned enough credibility in his life to be taken for his word without some stupid conspiracy theory nonsense doubting him. He was doing just fine before the video, and doing just fine after the video, and I think him declaring what his actual belief system is, and that it is not atheism, has had no impact at all on his career. Is everyone else in this thread who agreed with his opinion on that also just being influenced by people like me too?
    I don't have a "non belief system". There is nothing systematic about atheism. It's the rejection of a single premise. I've watched Dr. Tyson's video about agnosticism, and it's clear from the video that he's an atheist who doesn't want to be associated with the "New Atheism" movement.

    And yes, people who doesn't believe in gods but reject the atheist label does so because atheism's critics have latched on to Harris, Dawkins, Hitchens, Dennet, and such as being the "leaders of an atheism movement" and labeling other atheists as "followers", or for some similar public perception reason. Dr. Tyson's stated reason for rejecting the label is because he doesn't want to be labeled a follower of those four "prophets".

    That said, there is a social and political movement more or less led by atheists like Harris and Dawkins, that does seek to basically eliminate religion, but that's not atheism. A better term for that would be antitheism.



    No dummy, I do it ironically. Which I think was obvious to the non-aspie crowd here.
    And yet you pulled the antisemitism card on me when I called judaism iron age nonsense.


    He doesn't "have" to deal with anyone. The man is wealthy, and begged by thousands to come speak. But you go on living in denial to justify your non-belief system. Why not, all the other weird cultists do it. Go on thinking "if only people saw what I see in the world, they would understand and believe like me! Those who don't agree with me are either dumb, or pressured by the dumb!"
    No, he DOES have to deal with people. Dr. Tyson's JOB is dealing with people. He's a science communicator.



    I think I am just an advanced ape who would have no clue what the world should look like if an omnipotent being cared about it. That you think you do know goes to once more show how you put your own ego above reason.
    If you have no clue then you're not that advanced an ape. I think you actually are advanced enough, tho. You give yourself too little credit.

    Also, and I tried to explain this earlier to you (because you obviously don't know anything about Judaism), Jews don't think you have to be a Jew to go to "heaven". Indeed, in Judaism, it's technically easier to go to "heaven" as a non-Jew (because you don't have the added burden of being one of the Chosen people, which is actually more of a curse than benefit in many respects). And, we have a Pious Non-believer category even for Jews. But bottom line, nothing in Judaism would dictate that the world would be, or should be, composed of mostly or all Jews, and it's perfectly in line with the religion for the World to be made up of many different religions and the non-religious.

    In Judaism, God wants you to behave in a good manner, not to be Jewish. Most Jews view themselves more like the docents at a museum - you're not there to see the docents, they don't want you to become a docent (and if you ask they will tell you the pay's crappy and the position is unappreciated), but they can help you understand the exhibits better.

    It's one reason why you don't see Jews preaching on street corners or knocking on your doors trying to convert you. Converting is actually pretty difficult, not particularly encouraged, and mostly because you married into it and want your kids to have parents with the same religion. Instead, most Jews believe in things like Education, Science, Literature, Music, Theater, Art, History, Economics, Entertainment, and Politics. That's where most "Jewish money" goes, because most Jews think those are the institutions which best promote, or have the most potential to best communicate, "good behavior". Look at the donor list for most museums, schools, thinktanks, research facilities, theaters, etc... and you will probably see Jewish names there, in a disproportionate number to the percentage of Jews in society. It's not a coincidence, nor is it a coincidence you see so many Jews getting advanced degrees (particularly in the sciences), and entering professions in those fields.

    Anyway, I know that won't change your mind in general on this topic Eldorian, but maybe it will clear up a bit of your misinformation concerning the quantity of Jews in the world as some sort of sign of success or failure. It's not really particularly meaningful, when talking about a religion that doesn't think it's the One True Way, but merely one way, and a way that's simply trying to help all the other ways get to the same good result. Even the ways that involve no God at all.
    I actually know quite a bit about judaism. I certainly know enough about it to know that your statements about it are by no means embraced by the whole of it. I know jews don't proselytize. I know some jews are charitable. I know that Ashkenazim are smarter than average, which is why there are so many jewish nobel prize winners in the sciences.

    I know enough about jews to think that the world and the US would be better off if they (well, the Ashkenazim at least) had just come here after WW2 instead of forming the disaster (bad star, something I would have known had I looked at the word, but never thought about before Cosmos) that is Israel. I certainly have a higher opinion of jews than of evangelical christians or the majority of muslims. But you can't fool me into thinking they're all Spielberg and Einstein.

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    Pony Up! Ovinomancer's Avatar
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    I think you have interesting and non-mainstream views on what atheism is, but I also seem to recall we've been down this path and you're wedded to your definitions. Hint, though: it's really difficult to convince other people when you insist you know their beliefs based on your definitions instead of what they say.

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    That's Wacist! Mistwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldorian View Post
    I don't have a "non belief system". There is nothing systematic about atheism. It's the rejection of a single premise. I've watched Dr. Tyson's video about agnosticism, and it's clear from the video that he's an atheist who doesn't want to be associated with the "New Atheism" movement.

    And yes, people who doesn't believe in gods but reject the atheist label does so because atheism's critics have latched on to Harris, Dawkins, Hitchens, Dennet, and such as being the "leaders of an atheism movement" and labeling other atheists as "followers", or for some similar public perception reason. Dr. Tyson's stated reason for rejecting the label is because he doesn't want to be labeled a follower of those four "prophets".
    This is a heaping load of bullshit and confirmation bias. You take one of the MANY MANY reasons he gives for rejecting the label, and pretend that's the one and only reason, and then claim your particularly skewed take on what he said is "obvious". It's only obvious to you because it meets your agenda, and you rejected all the parts that didn't fit your agenda. Watch it again - objectively this time. Give equal weight to all the reasons he gives, and rather than trying to fit those reasons into your hypothesis, take them for what they are. You'll see it doesn't actually fit your view.

    And yet you pulled the antisemitism card on me when I called judaism iron age nonsense.
    No bigot, I pulled it because you did it ON A NON-RELIGIOUS TOPIC THAT HAD NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH THIS. You were explicitly rejecting my opinion on "rails to bikepaths" because I am Jewish. None of my objection had to do with the "iron age nonsense" part, and everything to do with the "shut up you stupid Jew!" part in a normal non-religious conversation.



    No, he DOES have to deal with people. Dr. Tyson's JOB is dealing with people. He's a science communicator.
    Show me how his career did better or worse as a result of that video. If he "had" to do it because of his career, there should be some evidence he was ailing in his career before the video, and suddenly solved those issues with the video. It's a pure nonsense conspiracy theory with no evidence behind it. Which is particularly ironic given your position.

    I actually know quite a bit about judaism. I certainly know enough about it to know that your statements about it are by no means embraced by the whole of it.
    LOL that's why I said "most". There is no such thing as a topic that ALL Jews agree on. It's practically the definition of Jew But what I wrote is a fair summary of the broad outlines of "most".

    I know jews don't proselytize. I know some jews are charitable. I know that Ashkenazim are smarter than average, which is why there are so many jewish nobel prize winners in the sciences.

    I know enough about jews to think that the world and the US would be better off if they (well, the Ashkenazim at least) had just come here after WW2 instead of forming the disaster (bad star, something I would have known had I looked at the word, but never thought about before Cosmos) that is Israel. I certainly have a higher opinion of jews than of evangelical christians or the majority of muslims. But you can't fool me into thinking they're all Spielberg and Einstein.
    I was not trying to convince you of any such thing. But nice strawman. You appear to have entirely missed my point. Which is too bad.

    All you really need to take from what I said was, "Most Jews don't view Judaism as the One True Religion, and so religious success is not measured by quantity of believers."
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    That's Wacist! Mistwell's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldorian View Post
    I don't have a "non belief system". There is nothing systematic about atheism. It's the rejection of a single premise. I've watched Dr. Tyson's video about agnosticism, and it's clear from the video that he's an atheist who doesn't want to be associated with the "New Atheism" movement.

    And yes, people who doesn't believe in gods but reject the atheist label does so because atheism's critics have latched on to Harris, Dawkins, Hitchens, Dennet, and such as being the "leaders of an atheism movement" and labeling other atheists as "followers", or for some similar public perception reason. Dr. Tyson's stated reason for rejecting the label is because he doesn't want to be labeled a follower of those four "prophets".
    This is a heaping load of bullshit and confirmation bias. You take one of the MANY MANY reasons he gives for rejecting the label, and pretend that's the one and only reason, and then claim your particularly skewed take on what he said is "obvious". It's only obvious to you because it meets your agenda, and you rejected all the parts that didn't fit your agenda. Watch it again - objectively this time. Give equal weight to all the reasons he gives, and rather than trying to fit those reasons into your hypothesis, take them for what they are. You'll see it doesn't actually fit your view.

    And yet you pulled the antisemitism card on me when I called judaism iron age nonsense.
    No bigot, I pulled it because you did it ON A NON-RELIGIOUS TOPIC THAT HAD NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH THIS. You were explicitly rejecting my opinion on "rails to bikepaths" because I am Jewish. None of my objection had to do with the "iron age nonsense" part, and everything to do with the "shut up you stupid Jew!" part in a normal non-religious conversation.



    No, he DOES have to deal with people. Dr. Tyson's JOB is dealing with people. He's a science communicator.
    Show me how his career did better or worse as a result of that video. If he "had" to do it because of his career, there should be some evidence he was ailing in his career before the video, and suddenly solved those issues with the video. It's a pure nonsense conspiracy theory with no evidence behind it. Which is particularly ironic given your position.

    I actually know quite a bit about judaism. I certainly know enough about it to know that your statements about it are by no means embraced by the whole of it.
    LOL that's why I said "most". There is no such thing as a topic that ALL Jews agree on. It's practically the definition of Jew But what I wrote is a fair summary of the broad outlines of "most".

    I know jews don't proselytize. I know some jews are charitable. I know that Ashkenazim are smarter than average, which is why there are so many jewish nobel prize winners in the sciences.

    I know enough about jews to think that the world and the US would be better off if they (well, the Ashkenazim at least) had just come here after WW2 instead of forming the disaster (bad star, something I would have known had I looked at the word, but never thought about before Cosmos) that is Israel. I certainly have a higher opinion of jews than of evangelical christians or the majority of muslims. But you can't fool me into thinking they're all Spielberg and Einstein.
    I was not trying to convince you of any such thing. But nice strawman. You appear to have entirely missed my point. Which is too bad.

    All you really need to take from what I said was, "Most Jews don't view Judaism as the One True Religion, and so religious success is not measured by quantity of believers."
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    can't be bothered Eldorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ovinomancer View Post
    I think you have interesting and non-mainstream views on what atheism is, but I also seem to recall we've been down this path and you're wedded to your definitions. Hint, though: it's really difficult to convince other people when you insist you know their beliefs based on your definitions instead of what they say.
    You keep saying that, but repeating it doesn't make you in the "mainstream".

    http://lmgtfy.com/?q=what+is+atheism

    http://www.atheists.org/activism/res...hat-is-atheism

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheist?s=t

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism

    Hint, though: it's really difficult to convince other people when you insist you know they believe something based on your definitions instead of what they (and dictionaries) say.

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    can't be bothered Eldorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mistwell View Post
    This is a heaping load of bullshit and confirmation bias. You take one of the MANY MANY reasons he gives for rejecting the label, and pretend that's the one and only reason, and then claim your particularly skewed take on what he said is "obvious". It's only obvious to you because it meets your agenda, and you rejected all the parts that didn't fit your agenda. Watch it again - objectively this time. Give equal weight to all the reasons he gives, and rather than trying to fit those reasons into your hypothesis, take them for what they are. You'll see it doesn't actually fit your view.
    I've watched it several times. Fuck, I'll watch it again. 1) Often asked in an accusatory way "are you an atheist", doesn't like that. 2) He doesn't want to be associated with the "New Atheists" movement. 3) Likes the word agnostic, bit of history. Recognizes that under many definitions proposed by atheists, agnosticism is a subset of atheism. 4) Stuff about his wiki page being edited. 5) Talks about atheists he knows (hint, he knows Harris, Dawkins, Hitchens) are activists. Again rejects association. 5) He doesn't have the time nor inclination to argue about it (which is what the new atheist movement does, imagine that). 6) goal is to get people to "think straight in the first place" ie, science communicator, not antitheist activist. 7) Injects humor by referring to agolfers or askiiers, again asserts doesn't want to be an activist. 8) Uses title of "agnostic" to separate himself from any atheist movement 9) He doesn't want to be labeled at all, despite asking for the label of "scientist" heh.



    No bigot, I pulled it because you did it ON A NON-RELIGIOUS TOPIC THAT HAD NOTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH THIS. You were explicitly rejecting my opinion on "rails to bikepaths" because I am Jewish. None of my objection had to do with the "iron age nonsense" part, and everything to do with the "shut up you stupid Jew!" part in a normal non-religious conversation.
    It wasn't your opinion on "rails to bikepaths". It was your attack on me I responded to. And I made fun of your iron age nonsense that hardly anyone believes anymore. If you had been a Parsi it would have been just as relevant (tho Parsis don't have a western nation backed, heavy armed country trying to take back Iran from the muslims). Also, I said I was sorta sorry, didn't mean to bleed over. Also, I'm sorry for derailing this thread, though in my defense, I didn't start the fire.

    Show me how his career did better or worse as a result of that video. If he "had" to do it because of his career, there should be some evidence he was ailing in his career before the video, and suddenly solved those issues with the video. It's a pure nonsense conspiracy theory with no evidence behind it. Which is particularly ironic given your position.
    I don't claim to be privy to what Dr. Tyson gets paid to do big think videos. He definitely has to disassociate himself from the New Atheists movement for his career. Or have you never watched a video with Dr. Tyson and one of the New Atheists? He'd have a hard time science communicating if all his time was taken by by arguing with theists about how the world would be better without theism. Look at how much trouble I have on just this forum with arguing about atheism. Believe it or not, this isn't my favorite thing to do, mostly because I've done it so much. I'd rather argue about ending prohibition, or about expanding nuclear power, or about scaling back foreign military excursions. Those are things I feel pretty strongly about but no one ever seems to care to argue. But oh no, religion gets the fires burning.


    LOL that's why I said "most". There is no such thing as a topic that ALL Jews agree on. It's practically the definition of Jew But what I wrote is a fair summary of the broad outlines of "most".
    Most American jews, sure. But policy is made in Israel again and again that shows a much more militant outlook on religion, or perhaps race.

    I was not trying to convince you of any such thing. But nice strawman. You appear to have entirely missed my point. Which is too bad.

    All you really need to take from what I said was, "Most Jews don't view Judaism as the One True Religion, and so religious success is not measured by quantity of believers."
    Then why the opposition to Jews for Jesus? Why the reluctance to perform interfaith marriages (true said reluctance is declining, but Orthodox Rabbis still refuse)? Why continue to settle Palestine? And I'm no rabbinical scholar, but it seems to me that Judaism is inconsistent with true polytheism.

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    Religipster Enkhidu's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldorian View Post
    ...Then why the opposition to Jews for Jesus? Why the reluctance to perform interfaith marriages (true said reluctance is declining, but Orthodox Rabbis still refuse)? Why continue to settle Palestine? And I'm no rabbinical scholar, but it seems to me that Judaism is inconsistent with true polytheism.
    I think you misunderstood Misty's statement there. Judaism is based on the premise that the Jews are a chosen people, who have to live by different rules than everyone else. Given that:

    * Jews for Jesus is rejected because Jews are supposed to still be waiting for God to send the Messiah. Since Jesus isn't the Messiah in their worldview, this is obviously wrong - the kind of wrong that can damn a Jew (though not a Gentile). Obviously they can't support that movement.
    * Palestine is the homeland. God promised it to them, and they are just trying to get back what's theirs.
    * Judaism is consistent with polytheism, just not Jewish polytheism. Polytheism is fine for the Gentiles - they weren't specifically chosen by God, and have no obligation.

    I left out the interfaith marriages from the list because I'm not sure how those fit in, but if you accept the idea that Judaism is founded on the core idea that Jews are obligated to follow God in ways that no other people are, things fall into place.

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    can't be bothered Eldorian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enkhidu View Post
    Judaism is based on the premise that the Jews are a chosen people, who have to live by different rules than everyone else.
    I think Mistwell was avoiding saying that in particular. I don't think it scores the jews any points.

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    Dangerous! Morrus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eldorian View Post
    I think Mistwell was avoiding saying that in particular. I don't think it scores the jews any points.
    Does that mean Mistwell is the Chosen One? #vampireslayer

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    let them eat arugula! Vigilance's Avatar
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    So, Creationists are now demanding equal time on Cosmos.

    Tyson's response is predictably awesome.

    "I think the media has to sort of come out of this ethos that I think was in principle a good one, but doesn't really apply in science. The ethos was, whatever story you give, you have to give the opposing view, and then you can be viewed as balanced," Tyson said, adding, "you don't talk about the spherical earth with NASA and then say let's give equal time to the flat-earthers."
    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_5009234.html

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    let them eat arugula! Vigilance's Avatar
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    And creationists also have a problem with Cosmos talking about comets, and specifically the Oort Cloud.

    Cause, you know, they're older than the universe is supposed to be.

    There's also an awesome podcast linked in the article where Tyson explains why he doesn't argue with science deniers, like climate change folks and creationist whackos.

    https://soundcloud.com/inquiringmind...finally#t=0:00

    http://www.motherjones.com/environme...s-creationists

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